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debian-user-digest Digest V2007 #2099

From: <debian-user-digest-request(at)lists.debian.org>
Date: Sun Aug 05 2007 - 03:21:30 EDT


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debian-user-digest Digest Volume 2007 : Issue 2099

Today's Topics: 

  Re: Get display back?                 [ Kent West  ]
  Re: Get display back?                 [ Kent West  ]
  odd xorg-video-intel problem          [ Takehiko Abe  ]
  Re: Get display back?                 [ Douglas Allan Tutty  ]
  Re: odd xorg-video-intel problem      [ Andrew Sackville-West  ]
  testing asterisk for security         [ Steffen Joeris  ]
  Re: less, exit but left content on s  [ Mark Nudelman  ]
  Re: scanner problem                   [ "Andrew J. Barr"  ]
  Re: Transitioning to 64bit, is it wo  [ Stefan Monnier 
  Re: Transitioning to 64bit, is it wo  [ bob@proulx.com (Bob Proulx) ]



Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2007 20:39:07 -0500


From: Kent West <westk@acu.edu>


To: debian users <debian-user@lists.debian.org>
Subject: Re: Get display back?

Message-ID: <46B52A3B.8090306@acu.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


Jeff wrote:

> Kent West wrote:
>> Jeff wrote:
>>> I am a new Debian user . Had Etch installed and tried to install the 
>>> Nvidia driver without success. Now i cannot get the display working 
>>> when i boot Etch ! Just a blank screen? Can someone tell me how to 
>>> get the display back from boot up please?
>>>
>> Try Ctrl-Alt-F1 to switch to Virtual Terminal 1 (VT1); if that works, 

Do you need help?X

>> you can make repairs from there. (I won't go into the repair process; 
>> let us know if you can get to this point.)
>>
>> If that doesn't work, does Crlt-Alt-Backspace do anything for you?
>>
>> If neither of those get you to a text-based VT, you'll have to boot 
>> into a "safer" mode; there are several ways to do this, but I'll wait 
>> to see if one of the above methods gets you farther along.
>>


> No sadly those two methods did not work.

Let me encourage you to keep the responses on-list; this way, others can 
benefit from the (archived and on-going) conversation, and others who 
are more knowledgeable than I can toss in their two-cents.



I also should have mentioned 


Ctrl-Alt-plus-or-minus-on-the-numeric-keypad to try and change 
resolution, but if the first two methods didn't work, that's fairly 
indicative that the either the video system or the system as a whole is 
locked up.


Do you need more help?X

I don't know anything about getting the proprietary Nvidia stuff going, 
but we should be able to get you back to SVGA or Debian's 
non-proprietary nv driver.



When you're at the grub prompt (LILO, perhaps, but doubtful), do you 
have an option for "safe" or "recovery" mode, or some-such? If so, 
choose it; if not, choose the option to change the boot parameters, and 
add the text "init=/bin/bash". Either of these cases will get you to a 
virtual terminal (assuming you haven't secured your box more than the 
default; if you have, you'll have to use a boot medium, such as the 
installation CD or a Knoppix LiveCD).



Once into a virtual terminal (the "init=/bin/bash" option will give you 
a bare minimum setup), you may have to mount relevant partitions 
(depending on how you partitioned your drive) so that you can get into 
the /etc/init.d directory. Once in that directory, you'll need to 
disable the automatic start-up of X by deactivating gdm or wdm or xdm or 
kdm (most likely gdm, then second likely kdm). If you see any of these 
files, edit them (using vi or nano) and add "exit 0" as the first 
non-comment line in the file. Save the file, and restart the computer. 
(There are other methods for doing the recovery, but this is probably 
the easiest to explain based on guesses about your setup.)



Once you reboot, you should have a normal, non-X environment. Now you 
can edit /etc/X11/xorg.conf (or run "dpkg-reconfigure xorg-server" (I 
believe)) and change the line that says something like "Driver 'NVidia'" 
to "Driver 'nv'" or "Driver 'svga'". After saving the file, test it with 
"startx". Once X is running again, you can reactive the automatic 
startup of X if you like by commenting out or removing the "exit 0" 
line(s) you made in "/etc/init.d/[xgwk]dm".



I know it seems complex, but you can do it.


-- 
Kent


Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2007 20:42:15 -0500
From: Kent West <westk@acu.edu>
To: debian users <debian-user@lists.debian.org>
Subject: Re: Get display back?
Message-ID: <46B52AF7.8070501@acu.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Kent West wrote:

> ... that's fairly indicative that the either the video system or the 
> system as a whole is locked up.

>
If your CAPS lock or Numlock indicator toggles when you press on the 
corresponding key, that's indicative that the entire system is not 
locked up; you might can ssh into your box from another box and make 
your changes without having to do the boot-up hacks I mentioned in the 
previous email. That would probably be easier. If you can ssh in, you 
can just manually fix the /etc/X11/xorg.conf file without killing the 
/etc/init.d/[gxwk]dm script first. (Of course, you could bypass this 
step anyway and just edit the xorg.conf file in your "recovery" boot.)


-- 
Kent



Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2007 10:52:03 +0900
From: Takehiko Abe <keke@gol.com>
To: debian-user <debian-user@lists.debian.org>
Subject: odd xorg-video-intel problem
Message-ID: <46B52D43.3090107@gol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

[ package: xserver-xorg-video-intel version 2:2.1.0-2 ]

Since I updated xserver-xorg-video-intel, my LCD started to complain
that it is in a non-preset mode, that is, the monitor displayed a
message "Nonpreset Mode" for 5 seconds when X started.

The resolution is set to the native 1280x1024. However, the LCD's On
Screen Display (OSD) reports that the current resolution is set to
"640x350".

The motherborad is intel DG965WH. The monitor is connected to its
onboard video via SDVO/ADD2 DVI-D.


Does anyone have a similar problem?


Thanks,
T.



Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2007 22:09:34 -0400
From: Douglas Allan Tutty <dtutty@porchlight.ca>
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Subject: Re: Get display back?
Message-ID: <20070805020934.GA15646@titan>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline

On Sat, Aug 04, 2007 at 08:42:15PM -0500, Kent West wrote:

> Kent West wrote:
> >... that's fairly indicative that the either the video system or the 
> >system as a whole is locked up.
> >
> If your CAPS lock or Numlock indicator toggles when you press on the 
> corresponding key, that's indicative that the entire system is not 
> locked up; you might can ssh into your box from another box and make 
> your changes without having to do the boot-up hacks I mentioned in the 
> previous email. That would probably be easier. If you can ssh in, you 
> can just manually fix the /etc/X11/xorg.conf file without killing the 
> /etc/init.d/[gxwk]dm script first. (Of course, you could bypass this 
> step anyway and just edit the xorg.conf file in your "recovery" boot.)
> 


Another way to get into the box is to boot the install CD in rescue
mode.  From the menus, you can get a shell that is chrooted into the
box.  From there, you can either edit xorg.conf or you may even be able
to run dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg.

Also, there's an option inbetween a normal boot and an init=/bin/sh,
that is 's', for single.  This will run through the /etc/rcS.d scripts
and prompt for the root password.

Doug.


Can we help you?X

Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2007 21:01:41 -0500
From: John Hasler <jhasler@debian.org>
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Subject: Re: less, exit but left content on screen
Message-ID: <87myx668oq.fsf@toncho.dhh.gt.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Tong Sun writes:

> I remember that I used to be able to exit 'less' by command key 'x'...


Try 'less -X'.  Note that this disables termcap initialization and
deinitialization.

-- 
John Hasler



Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2007 20:00:11 -0700
From: Andrew Sackville-West <andrew@farwestbilliards.com>
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Subject: Re: odd xorg-video-intel problem
Message-ID: <20070805030011.GD23207@localhost.localdomain>
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On Sun, Aug 05, 2007 at 10:52:03AM +0900, Takehiko Abe wrote:

> [ package: xserver-xorg-video-intel version 2:2.1.0-2 ]

>

> Since I updated xserver-xorg-video-intel, my LCD started to complain
> that it is in a non-preset mode, that is, the monitor displayed a
> message "Nonpreset Mode" for 5 seconds when X started.


does the monitor then recover?

>

> The resolution is set to the native 1280x1024. However, the LCD's On
> Screen Display (OSD) reports that the current resolution is set to
> "640x350".


I've been meaning to review the intel bugs because i've been
frustrated configuring it as well for an lcd monitor. I've had to
trial-and-error my way into a modeline that works for our monitor and
then convince the driver to use that modeline. It doesn't seem to
behave in ways that make sense to me.=20

Could you post up your xorg.conf?

A

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Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2007 08:03:05 +0530
From: Kumar Appaiah <akumar@iitm.ac.in>
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Subject: Re: Bookmark nicknames, and address drop down in Epiphany
Message-ID: <20070805023305.GA7368@localhost>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline

On Fri, Aug 03, 2007 at 09:26:59AM +0100, Magnus Therning wrote:

> >You can achieve the desired behaviour by adding a bookmark containing a 
> >"%s" which will be filled with the entered string.
> >
> >So to add a search for debian bugs just add the following bookmark:
> >
> >    http://bugs.debian.org/%s
> 
> That won't result in the behaviour desired by the OP, not exactly.  It
> is however an excellent substitute for the desired behaviour.  One that
> I use myself :-)


I accept that it is similar, but if I have some 10 or 12 such
shortcuts, I necessarily have to type out the shortcut, and then use
the arrow keys or the mouse to come to the right option in the drop
down menu. I find the method I asked for (which works now) mych
faster.

Thanks.

Kumar
-- 
Kumar Appaiah,
458, Jamuna Hostel,
Indian Institute of Technology Madras,
Chennai - 600 036



Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2007 13:24:39 +1000
From: Steffen Joeris <steffen.joeris@skolelinux.de>
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Subject: testing asterisk for security
Message-Id: <200708051324.49191.steffen.joeris@skolelinux.de>
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Hi

I somehow feel that I reach more users here.
Anyone around, who uses asterisk? It would be nice, if some people could gi=
ve=20
the following packages a try. Atm, asterisk is being prepared for a=20
DSA/DTSA .
Therefore, it would be nice, if people could check the testing[0] and=20
stable[1] packages (depending on which you are using). Please report your=20
feedback back to me and keep in mind that I am only interested in answering=
=20
the following question: Does this version break anything or does it run as=
=20
before on stable and testing. It is not about other bugs or features :)
Thanks in advance for your efforts.

Cheers
Steffen

[0]: http://developer.skolelinux.no/~white/debs/security/lenny/asterisk/

[1]: http://developer.skolelinux.no/~white/debs/security/etch/asterisk/

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Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2007 23:45:46 -0400
From: "Manaen Schlabach" <manaen.schlabach@gmail.com>
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Subject: Bzflag Segfaults
Message-ID: <c9def8e40708042045l4d7914bbo41ea78c403759cb4@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
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I am currently running Debian testing and since doing my daily update
two days ago am unable to run Bzflag.  The program immediately
Segfaults back to the prompt and occasionally causes gdm to restart as
well.  Is anyone else having this problem?



Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2007 13:33:14 +0900
From: Takehiko Abe <keke@gol.com>
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Subject: Re: odd xorg-video-intel problem
Message-ID: <46B5530A.6030301@gol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Andrew Sackville-West wrote:

 >> Since I updated xserver-xorg-video-intel, my LCD started to complain
 >> that it is in a non-preset mode, that is, the monitor displayed a
 >> message "Nonpreset Mode" for 5 seconds when X started.
 >
 > does the monitor then recover?

Yes. Except for the message, the monitor seems to work normally.

 >> The resolution is set to the native 1280x1024. However, the LCD's On
 >> Screen Display (OSD) reports that the current resolution is set to
 >> "640x350".
 >
 > I've been meaning to review the intel bugs because i've been
 > frustrated configuring it as well for an lcd monitor. I've had to
 > trial-and-error my way into a modeline that works for our monitor and
 > then convince the driver to use that modeline. It doesn't seem to
 > behave in ways that make sense to me.
 >
 > Could you post up your xorg.conf?

I tried some modeline and other option combinations but none cured
the symptom. I gave up and there's nothing interesting in it:

Section "Device"
	Identifier	"Intel Corporation 82G965 Integrated Graphics Controller"
	Driver		"intel"
	BusID		"PCI:0:2:0"
	# Screen		0
	Option "AccelMethod" "XAA"
	Option "XAANoOffscreenPixmaps" "true"
	# no change.
	# Option "Monitor-TMDS-1" "BenQ FP93GP"
	# no good.
	# Option "DDC" "off"
EndSection

Section "Monitor"
	Identifier	"BenQ FP93GP"
	Option		"DPMS"
	# HorizSync 31-83
	# VertRefresh 56-76
	# Modeline "1280x1024" 108.00 1280 1328 1440 1688  1024 1025 1028 1066 
+hsync +vsync
EndSection

Section "Screen"
	Identifier	"Default Screen"
	Device		"Intel Corporation 82G965 Integrated Graphics Controller"
	Monitor		"BenQ FP93GP"
	DefaultDepth	24
	SubSection "Display"
		Modes		"1280x1024" "1152x864" "1024x768" "832x624" "800x600" "720x400" 
"640x480" "640x350"
	EndSubSection
EndSection

;;;

Thanks,
T.



Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2007 21:29:52 -0700
From: Mark Nudelman <markn@greenwoodsoftware.com>
To: Tong Sun <mlist4suntong@yahoo.com>
Cc: Debian Bug Tracking System <submit@bugs.debian.org>,
	debian-user@lists.debian.org
Subject: Re: less, exit but left content on screen
Message-ID: <46B55240.4060108@greenwoodsoftware.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi Tong,
You probably want the -X flag.
See http://www.greenwoodsoftware.com/less/faq.html#tite for more details.

--Mark


On 8/4/2007 6:06 PM, Tong Sun wrote:

> Package: less
> Version: 394-4
> Severity: wishlist
> 
> I remember that I used to be able to exit 'less' by command key 'x' or
> something so that the content just viewed is left on screen, instead of
> being cleared and restored to the screen before invoking 'less'. But I
> found there is no such capability in current less (version 394). Or
> is there? 
> 
> I am not sure whether my memory is correct or not, but I think such
> capability, leaving the just viewed content on screen, is desirable in
> certain circumstances. I hope such capability be implemented/put back
> into less. 
> 
> Thanks 
> 
> Tong
> 
> -- System Information:
> Debian Release: 4.0
>   APT prefers stable
>   APT policy: (300, 'stable'), (50, 'unstable')
> Architecture: i386 (i686)
> Shell:  /bin/sh linked to /bin/bash
> Kernel: Linux 2.6.17-grml
> Locale: LANG=C, LC_CTYPE=C (charmap=ANSI_X3.4-1968)
> 
> Versions of packages less depends on:
> ii  debianutils                 2.17         Miscellaneous utilities specific t
> ii  libc6                       2.3.6.ds1-13 GNU C Library: Shared libraries
> ii  libncurses5                 5.5-5        Shared libraries for terminal hand
> 
> less recommends no packages.
> 
> -- no debconf information

Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2007 00:52:18 -0400
From: "Andrew J. Barr" <andrew.james.barr@gmail.com>
To: "Takehiko Abe" <keke@gol.com>
Cc: debian-user <debian-user@lists.debian.org>
Subject: Re: odd xorg-video-intel problem
Message-ID: <903e17bb0708042152md507327o87fe4e241cf8e0f@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline

On 8/4/07, Takehiko Abe <keke@gol.com> wrote:

> [ package: xserver-xorg-video-intel version 2:2.1.0-2 ]

>

> Since I updated xserver-xorg-video-intel, my LCD started to complain
> that it is in a non-preset mode, that is, the monitor displayed a
> message "Nonpreset Mode" for 5 seconds when X started.

>

> The resolution is set to the native 1280x1024. However, the LCD's On
> Screen Display (OSD) reports that the current resolution is set to
> "640x350".

>

> The motherborad is intel DG965WH. The monitor is connected to its
> onboard video via SDVO/ADD2 DVI-D.


The file /var/log/Xorg.0.log would help with diagnostics. Also,
consider posting to the xorg@lists.freedesktop.org list, a number of
Intel employees are active there. Additionally, consult the driver
documentation. I believe you can turn on a debug mode in the
modesetting code by specifying an option in xorg.conf. This might help
you or someone else figure out what's wrong.

My own experience with the 965:

I have a 965 connected to an widescreen 1440x900 LCD monitor via a VGA
connector. When X starts, it starts in a non-native resolution, but
after I log in the GNOME session software changes the native
resolution which I specified in the Screen Resolution control panel.


> Does anyone have a similar problem?

>
>

> Thanks,
> T.

>
>

> --
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
> with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org

>
>


-- 
Andrew Barr

We matter more than pounds and pence,
your economic theory makes no sense...


Can't find what you're looking for?X

Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2007 16:56:27 +1200
From: Jeff <professorwagstaff@gmail.com>
To: Debian <debian-user@lists.debian.org>
Subject: scanner problem
Message-ID: <46B5587B.40404@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

My Cannon Lide 20 scanner does not work on Etch. It only works if i 
start it as root. Is there an easy way to fix this?
Thanks
Jeff



Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2007 01:00:50 -0400
From: "Andrew J. Barr" <andrew.james.barr@gmail.com>
To: Jeff <professorwagstaff@gmail.com>
Cc: Debian <debian-user@lists.debian.org>
Subject: Re: scanner problem
Message-ID: <903e17bb0708042200q25f85c77ve7b18eb505bf4295@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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On 8/5/07, Jeff <professorwagstaff@gmail.com> wrote:

> My Cannon Lide 20 scanner does not work on Etch. It only works if i
> start it as root. Is there an easy way to fix this?
> Thanks
> Jeff


You need to add yourself to the 'scanner' group. As root, run:

gpasswd -a <username> scanner

<username> being your username.


-- 
Andrew Barr

We matter more than pounds and pence,
your economic theory makes no sense...



Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2007 17:50:12 +1200
From: Jeff <professorwagstaff@gmail.com>
To: Debian <debian-user@lists.debian.org>
Subject: Re: scanner problem
Message-ID: <46B56514.9090104@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Andrew J. Barr wrote:

> On 8/5/07, Jeff <professorwagstaff@gmail.com> wrote:
>   

>> My Cannon Lide 20 scanner does not work on Etch. It only works if i
>> start it as root. Is there an easy way to fix this?
>> Thanks
>> Jeff
>>     
>

> You need to add yourself to the 'scanner' group. As root, run:

>

> gpasswd -a <username> scanner

>

> <username> being your username.

>

>   

Many thanks that worked! (after i logged out and in)



Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2007 01:55:13 -0400
From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca>
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Subject: Re: Transitioning to 64bit, is it worth it, and how
Message-ID: <jwvbqdmv8a8.fsf-monnier+linux.debian.user@gnu.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


> is because there is a penalty for executing 32-bit code, one which is


There is none (if you use the 32bit subset of the AMD64 architecture).
But there is a penalty for using the x86 architecture instead of the
amd64 architecture.

This penalty is not specific to the Athlon64/Opteron/younameit, but to all
known x86 implementation: it's just the the x86 architecture has few
registers and this limitation was partly lifted in the amd64 architecture.

So the "penalty" you're talking about, is there because the amd64
architecture did more than extend pointers and int to 64bit, it also fixed
a few problems in the x86 architecture.  It has nothing to do with whether
or not the amd64 is a "true 64 bit architecture", whatever that may mean.


        Stefan



Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2007 09:33:39 +0300
From: Andrei Popescu <andreimpopescu@gmail.com>
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Subject: Re: odd xorg-video-intel problem
Message-ID: <20070805063339.GC6456@think.homenet>
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On Sun, Aug 05, 2007 at 01:33:14PM +0900, Takehiko Abe wrote:

> Andrew Sackville-West wrote:

>

> >> Since I updated xserver-xorg-video-intel, my LCD started to complain
> >> that it is in a non-preset mode, that is, the monitor displayed a
> >> message "Nonpreset Mode" for 5 seconds when X started.
> >
> > does the monitor then recover?

>

> Yes. Except for the message, the monitor seems to work normally.

>

> >> The resolution is set to the native 1280x1024. However, the LCD's On
> >> Screen Display (OSD) reports that the current resolution is set to
> >> "640x350".
> >
> > I've been meaning to review the intel bugs because i've been
> > frustrated configuring it as well for an lcd monitor. I've had to
> > trial-and-error my way into a modeline that works for our monitor and
> > then convince the driver to use that modeline. It doesn't seem to
> > behave in ways that make sense to me.
> >
> > Could you post up your xorg.conf?



Section "Device"
	Identifier	"Generic Video Card"
	Driver		"intel"
	Option		"XvMCSurfaces" "7"
EndSection

Section "Monitor"
	Identifier	"Generic Monitor"
	Option		"DPMS"
#	HorizSync	28-51
#	VertRefresh	43-60
EndSection

Section "Screen"
	Identifier	"Default Screen"
	Device		"Generic Video Card"
	Monitor		"Generic Monitor"
	DefaultDepth	16
#	SubSection "Display"
#		Depth		1
#		Modes		"1024x768" "800x600" "640x480"
#	EndSubSection
#	SubSection "Display"
#		Depth		4
#		Modes		"1024x768" "800x600" "640x480"
#	EndSubSection
#	SubSection "Display"
#		Depth		8
#		Modes		"1024x768" "800x600" "640x480"
#	EndSubSection
#	SubSection "Display"
#		Depth		15
#		Modes		"1024x768" "800x600" "640x480"
#	EndSubSection
#	SubSection "Display"
#		Depth		16
#		Modes		"1024x768" "800x600" "640x480"
#	EndSubSection
#	SubSection "Display"
#		Depth		24
#		Modes		"1024x768" "800x600" "640x480"
#	EndSubSection
EndSection

Section "ServerLayout"
	Identifier	"Default Layout"
	Screen		"Default Screen"
	InputDevice	"Generic Keyboard"
	InputDevice	"Configured Mouse"
	InputDevice	"Synaptics Touchpad"
EndSection

As you can see I commented out all modelines and the HorizSync and=20
VertRefresh lines. Everything gets autoprobed.

$ apt-cache policy xserver-xorg-video-intel

xserver-xorg-video-intel:
  Installed: 2:2.1.0-2
  Candidate: 2:2.1.0-2
  Version table:
 *** 2:2.1.0-2 0
        500 http://ftp.ro.debian.org testing/main Packages
        500 http://ftp.ro.debian.org sid/main Packages
        100 /var/lib/dpkg/status

Regards,
Andrei
--=20
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.
(Albert Einstein)

--HG+GLK89HZ1zG0kk
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Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2007 00:28:14 -0600
From: bob@proulx.com (Bob Proulx)
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Subject: Re: Transitioning to 64bit, is it worth it, and how
Message-ID: <20070805062814.GA6925@dementia.proulx.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline

Andrew J. Barr wrote:

> Ron Johnson wrote:
> > Andrew J. Barr wrote:
> > > Yes. Unlike true 64-bit architectures like PowerPC, there is a penalty
> > > for executing 32 bit code on amd64/em64t processors.


Most certainly incorrect.  In fact natively compiled AMD64 64-bit
compiled code *may* run faster due to better optimizations available
by having more registers available.  But typically amd64 runs both
32-bit and 64-bit at similar performance levels.


> > Penalty?  Absolutely fscking not!!!!  The A64 processes 32 bit code
> > at a similar speed to "regular" Athlon CPUs.


Most emphatically agree!


> Do you have any sources for this?


Search the web.  I am too lazy to go looking myself at this moment.


> I remember quite distinctly seeing on a mailing list, I think it was
> debian-powerpc in fact, that the only reason that AMD64 operating
> systems have an all-64-bit user land is because there is a penalty
> for executing 32-bit code, one which is not present on other true
> 64-bit architectures.


Ahem, that is incorrect.  For example Red Hat and SuSE GNU/Linux on
amd64 install a "biarch" model with dual support for both 32-bit and
64-bit.  So I would put forward that most amd64 systems support both
32-bit and 64-bit out of the box.  The reason Debian is a pure 64-bit
system is simply that the "biarch" model used by Red Hat and SuSE is
terrible.  It is too ugly for words.  There was huge discussion about
how to support amd64 for Debian.  The obvious way to go is the
"multiarch" model but no one could agree to actually do it.

Meanwhile a pure 64-bit port was pretty simple, direct and without
serious complication.  A pure 64-bit port would be quite useful to a
large segment of the population.  Even if agreement could not be
reached on either biarch or multiarch a pure 64-bit port could be made
and would be useful and could transition to multiarch in the future
when the issues were resolved with it.  But even so there was huge
resistance because it was not a perfect solution and did not support
32-bit applications out of the box.  Arguments ensued.  The amd64 port
was prevented from entering Debian Sarge.  A sad time all things
considered.

Debian went with a pure 64-bit model on amd64 out of a pragmatic
attitude that it was good enough and that pursuit of a perfect
multiarch model should not prevent using 64-bit amd64 now.  There was
never any issue of performance difference entering into the
discussion.  A review of the early days of the debian-amd64 mailing
list would contain the history of these decisions.

Bob

End of debian-user-digest Digest V2007 Issue #2099
**************************************************

Received on Sun Aug  5 03:18:19 2007

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.8 : Thu Aug 09 2007 - 19:05:40 EDT

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