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debian-user-digest Digest V2007 #2325

From: <debian-user-digest-request(at)lists.debian.org>
Date: Fri Sep 07 2007 - 15:41:16 EDT


Content-Type: text/plain

debian-user-digest Digest Volume 2007 : Issue 2325

Today's Topics: 

  Re: another script query (perl?)      [ Richard Lyons  ]
  Re: why sarge is so noisy             [ Hal Vaughan  ]
  bots for searching                    [ Rick  ]
  Re: Unblocking sound card, or adding  [ Mark Grieveson  ]
  [OT] questions (was Re: why sarge is  [ Ron Johnson  ]
  Re: bots for searching                [ Raquel  ]
  Re: why sarge is so noisy             [ "Mumia W.." 

Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 15:49:21 +0100


From: Richard Lyons <richard@the-place.net>
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org


Subject: Re: another script query (perl?)

Message-ID: <20070907144921.GM12519@the-place.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline


On Fri, Sep 07, 2007 at 07:19:17AM -0700, tabris wrote:


> Richard Lyons wrote:
> > Hi, all you script wizards.
> >
> > I thought this would be easy, but I haven't found anything to crib
> > from...
> >
> > I need a script to read a text file (actually tex) and parse lines of a
> > table that may or may not span newline characters in the file.
> > Basically, there are lines of the form
> >
> >    {some text} & {some more text} & {text c} & {text d} \\
> >
> > where the braces are only for clarity and do not occur in the files, and
> > where the bits of text may include whitespace which may include newline
> > characters. There may also be escaped ampersands in the text ('\&'), and
> > the text fragments may be empty.
> >
> > I suspect perl may be the way forward.  I need to be able to read each
> > file, parse each set of three ampersands with a double backslash
> > breaking it into four substrings, manipulate the substrings and write
> > the file anew.  A typical manipulation will be to take text c and copy
> > it to text d. I shall also try to strip leading and trailing whitespace
> > to tidy up the file.
> >
> > Any and all pointers will be gratefully received!
> >
> >   
> please give real examples the text you have, as well as more info about
> what processing you will do with it.
> There are multiple ways to approach this, we need to have more
> information first.
> 


I'm not sure it helps a lot, as they vary quite lot, but here is one:



    \mbox{Walls} &Plain plastered and painted white. &GC but to soiled
around switch, RHS as entering, HL marks. OW nail near centre, some
 blue-tac remnants. LHW hairline cracking at HL. pipe boxing far RH
   corner, white painted, cracks at junctions.  & \\


Do you need help?X

and here is another:



   &catch, diecast \& epoxy coated with security lock & GC &\\



If it is unclear to any non-latex-user, the ampersands are table column
separators in latex.



After the manipulation I gave as an example, (copu text c to text d), I
would hope they would look like this:



\mbox{Walls} & Plain plastered and painted white. & GC but to soiled
around switch, RHS as entering, HL marks. OW nail near centre, some
blue-tac remnants. LHW hairline cracking at HL. pipe boxing far RH
corner, white painted, cracks at junctions. & GC but to soiled around
switch, RHS as entering, HL marks. OW nail near centre, some blue-tac
remnants. LHW hairline cracking at HL. pipe boxing far RH corner, white
painted, cracks at junctions. \\



and:



  & catch, diecast \& epoxy coated with security lock & GC & GC \\



The first example shows the problem of included newlines, which might
occur as here or anywhere else in the text. Note that the whole text
fragment has been copied to the previously void fourth field.


Do you need more help?X

The second example shows the need not to be confused by '\&'.  



If that is any clearer...


-- 
richard


Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 10:19:11 -0400
From: Neil Watson <debian@watson-wilson.ca>
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Subject: Re: another script query (perl?)
Message-ID: <20070907141911.GB25573@watson-wilson.ca>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Content-Disposition: inline

Perhaps you could show us what you've attempted so far.  Also,
perlmonks.org is a good place to learn more about perl.

-- 
Neil Watson             | Debian Linux
System Administrator    | Uptime 15 days
http://watson-wilson.ca

Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 08:26:50 -0700
From: tabris <tabris@tabris.net>
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Subject: Re: another script query (perl?)
Message-ID: <46E16DBA.3030804@tabris.net>
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Richard Lyons wrote:

> On Fri, Sep 07, 2007 at 07:19:17AM -0700, tabris wrote:

>

>  =20

>> Richard Lyons wrote:
>>    =20
>>> Hi, all you script wizards.
>>>
>>> I thought this would be easy, but I haven't found anything to crib
>>> from...
>>>
>>> I need a script to read a text file (actually tex) and parse lines of=
 a
>>> table that may or may not span newline characters in the file.
>>> Basically, there are lines of the form
>>>
>>>    {some text} & {some more text} & {text c} & {text d} \\
>>>
>>> where the braces are only for clarity and do not occur in the files, =
and
>>> where the bits of text may include whitespace which may include newli=
ne
>>> characters. There may also be escaped ampersands in the text ('\&'), =
and
>>> the text fragments may be empty.
>>>
>>> I suspect perl may be the way forward.  I need to be able to read eac=
h
>>> file, parse each set of three ampersands with a double backslash
>>> breaking it into four substrings, manipulate the substrings and write=

>>> the file anew.  A typical manipulation will be to take text c and cop=
y
>>> it to text d. I shall also try to strip leading and trailing whitespa=
ce
>>> to tidy up the file.
>>>
>>> Any and all pointers will be gratefully received!
>>>
>>>  =20
>>>      =20
>> please give real examples the text you have, as well as more info abou=
t
>> what processing you will do with it.
>> There are multiple ways to approach this, we need to have more
>> information first.
>>
>>    =20

> I'm not sure it helps a lot, as they vary quite lot, but here is one:

>

>     \mbox{Walls} &Plain plastered and painted white. &GC but to soiled
> around switch, RHS as entering, HL marks. OW nail near centre, some
>  blue-tac remnants. LHW hairline cracking at HL. pipe boxing far RH
>    corner, white painted, cracks at junctions.  & \\

>

> and here is another:

>

>    &catch, diecast \& epoxy coated with security lock & GC &\\

>

> If it is unclear to any non-latex-user, the ampersands are table column=

> separators in latex.

>

> After the manipulation I gave as an example, (copu text c to text d), I=

> would hope they would look like this:

>

> \mbox{Walls} & Plain plastered and painted white. & GC but to soiled
> around switch, RHS as entering, HL marks. OW nail near centre, some
> blue-tac remnants. LHW hairline cracking at HL. pipe boxing far RH
> corner, white painted, cracks at junctions. & GC but to soiled around
> switch, RHS as entering, HL marks. OW nail near centre, some blue-tac
> remnants. LHW hairline cracking at HL. pipe boxing far RH corner, white=

> painted, cracks at junctions. \\

>

> and:

>

>   & catch, diecast \& epoxy coated with security lock & GC & GC \\

>

> The first example shows the problem of included newlines, which might
> occur as here or anywhere else in the text. Note that the whole text
> fragment has been copied to the previously void fourth field.

>

> The second example shows the need not to be confused by '\&'. =20

>

> If that is any clearer...

>

>  =20

well, I'd say something along these lines assuming that you have $l
populated with the entire piece you want.
Also note that this attempts to avoid use of regexps where possible, as
they tend to be slow and hard to read. Not that I dislike regexps, but I
don't think they're necessary here. Also note that none of this code has
been tested, it's the product of about 5 minutes of hacking.

my @phrases =3D split('&', $l);
{
    my @tmp;
    while(my $phrase =3D shift @phrases) {
        if (substr($phrase, -2) eq '\') {
           my $tmp =3D $phrase .'&'. (shift @phrases);
        }
        push @tmp, $phrase;
    }
    @phrases =3D @tmp;
}

# remove trailing or leading whitespace
foreach my $phrase (@phrases) {
    $phrase =3D~ s/^\s//; #remove leading spaces
    $phrase =3D~ s/\s$//; # remove trailing spaces
    $phrase =3D~ s/\n/ /g; # change all new-line chars to spaces
}

# now reconstruct your text however you want it.
# I have a good (free, public-domain) line splitter if you need one.


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Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 11:50:48 -0400
From: Hal Vaughan <hal@thresholddigital.com>
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Subject: Re: why sarge is so noisy
Message-Id: <200709071150.48737.hal@thresholddigital.com>
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On Friday 07 September 2007, Julian De Marchi wrote:

> Serena Cantor wrote:
> > Thanks! Could you give me a list of programs that start
> > automatically? Do you mean that there's nothing I can do about it?

>

> <snip>

>

> Silly question.


No, it isn't and if you want to actually help someone instead of just 
insulting them, you could at least tell them why it's a silly question.

It was answers like this that originally kept me avoiding Debian after 
my first try.  D-U was not a friendly list at that point and I noticed 
whenever I, or other newbies asked questions, we were given answers 
that were either condescending or worthless.

Can we at least offer suggestions or explain why a question is silly?

Personally, as someone who spent a decade or more teaching, much of that 
time in special ed, I've learned that there is no dumb (or silly) 
question but there are bad answers.

Hal



Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 11:52:38 -0400
From: Hal Vaughan <hal@thresholddigital.com>
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Subject: Re: why sarge is so noisy
Message-Id: <200709071152.38482.hal@thresholddigital.com>
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On Friday 07 September 2007, Serena Cantor wrote:

> Thanks! "most of server-related work" are very specialized program I
> wrote myself.

>

> another example: seeding in bittorrent, if memory is big enough and
> file being served is small enough.


Also, depending on RAM size, even if you think everything can be done in 
memory only, a lot of processes might be using swap space or may be 
writing cache or log files to the disc.

Hal



Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 11:54:44 -0400
From: Hal Vaughan <hal@thresholddigital.com>
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Subject: Re: [OT] Re: why sarge is so noisy
Message-Id: <200709071154.45076.hal@thresholddigital.com>
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On Friday 07 September 2007, Miles Fidelman wrote:

> Ron Johnson wrote:
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA1
> >
> > On 09/07/07 01:45, Serena Cantor wrote:
> >> I have sarge, I use it all the time (it's server) The machine is
> >
> > Sarge?  Isn't that slightly Jurassic?

>

> I don't know, I'm still running it on a couple of production servers.
>  I figure anything less than a year old (i.e., Etch) isn't stable
> enough for production - particularly given that a variety of the
> programs I run haven't been updated to Etch yet (though I haven't
> looked really recently).


I'm still running 3 servers on Sarge as well.  I tried updating one and 
had problems with the kernel.  I kept getting errors about not being 
able to remove a kernel file while that version was being used.  I 
ended up having to reinstall the system.

Hal



Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 17:07:09 +0100
From: Richard Lyons <richard@the-place.net>
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Subject: Re: another script query (perl?)
Message-ID: <20070907160709.GN12519@the-place.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline

On Fri, Sep 07, 2007 at 08:26:50AM -0700, tabris wrote:


> Richard Lyons wrote:
> > On Fri, Sep 07, 2007 at 07:19:17AM -0700, tabris wrote:
> >
> >   
> >> Richard Lyons wrote:

[...]

> >>>    {some text} & {some more text} & {text c} & {text d} \\
> >>>
> >>> where the braces are only for clarity and do not occur in the files, and
> >>> where the bits of text may include whitespace which may include newline
> >>> characters. There may also be escaped ampersands in the text ('\&'), and
> >>> the text fragments may be empty.
> >>>
> >>> I suspect perl may be the way forward.  I need to be able to read each
> >>> file, parse each set of three ampersands with a double backslash
> >>> breaking it into four substrings, manipulate the substrings and write
> >>> the file anew.  A typical manipulation will be to take text c and copy
> >>> it to text d. I shall also try to strip leading and trailing whitespace
> >>> to tidy up the file.

[...]

> >   
> well, I'd say something along these lines assuming that you have $l
> populated with the entire piece you want.
> Also note that this attempts to avoid use of regexps where possible, as
> they tend to be slow and hard to read. Not that I dislike regexps, but I
> don't think they're necessary here. Also note that none of this code has
> been tested, it's the product of about 5 minutes of hacking.
> 
> my @phrases = split('&', $l);
> {
>     my @tmp;
>     while(my $phrase = shift @phrases) {
>         if (substr($phrase, -2) eq '\') {
>            my $tmp = $phrase .'&'. (shift @phrases);
>         }
>         push @tmp, $phrase;
>     }
>     @phrases = @tmp;
> }
> 
> # remove trailing or leading whitespace
> foreach my $phrase (@phrases) {
>     $phrase =~ s/^\s//; #remove leading spaces
>     $phrase =~ s/\s$//; # remove trailing spaces
>     $phrase =~ s/\n/ /g; # change all new-line chars to spaces
> }
> 
> # now reconstruct your text however you want it.
> # I have a good (free, public-domain) line splitter if you need one.
> 


Thanks for that.  I shall have a serious look at it on Sunday.  I must
admit I had expected the solution to be an inscrutable regexp, so this
is cool.

-- 
richard


Can we help you?X

Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 19:27:14 +0300
From: Andrei Popescu <andreimpopescu@gmail.com>
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Subject: Re: After Installing ISO Image I cant access GUI and Nedd
	"sources.list" file
Message-ID: <20070907162714.GD9854@think.homenet>
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On Fri, Sep 07, 2007 at 09:46:50AM +0200, Jochen Schulz wrote:
=20

> If you wanted to install pure Debian stable, this is most probably not
> what you want. The installer should have asked you about that anyway.
> But well, here's what I guess is what you want/need:

>=20

> deb http://ftp.debian.org/debian/   etch   main contrib non-free


AFAIK ftp.debian.org is kept only for legacy reasons. The recommended=20
mirrors are ftp.<country code>.debian.org or check=20
www.debian.org/mirrors/list for the closest one (or if your country=20
doesn't have one).

Regards,
Andrei
--=20
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.
(Albert Einstein)

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Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 09:56:35 -0700
From: David Brodbeck <brodbd@u.washington.edu>
To: List Debian User <debian-user@lists.debian.org>
Subject: Re: why sarge is so noisy
Message-Id: <7B345948-F5D9-4CC9-9D4E-FACB8F0E2122@u.washington.edu>
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On Sep 7, 2007, at 2:42 AM, Serena Cantor wrote:


> Thanks! "most of server-related work" are very specialized program  
> I wrote myself.

>

> another example: seeding in bittorrent, if memory is big enough and  
> file being served is small
> enough.


Since things seem to have veered off topic, I'll give the most likely  
answer to your original question:

If you're hearing disk activity at a specific time every day, it's  
most likely one of the periodic cron jobs.  Most of these are  
specified by files in /etc/cron.daily, /etc/cron.hourly, and /etc/ 
cron.monthly.  You can disable individual jobs by removing the  
execute bits on their scripts in those directories.  You can also  
change when they run by editing the "run-parts" entries in /etc/crontab.

I had to do this once when I had a server in my dorm room.  The  
server was at the foot of my bed, and it had a noisy old Kalok IDE  
hard disk as one of its drives.  The nightly updatedb job kept waking  
me up, so I moved it to a time when I'd already be awake. ;)

You'll never get rid of *all* of the disk activity because there's a  
lot going on behind the scenes in a Linux system.



Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 09:58:05 -0700
From: David Brodbeck <brodbd@u.washington.edu>
To: List Debian User <debian-user@lists.debian.org>
Subject: Re: why sarge is so noisy
Message-Id: <C1EFB6A0-9F63-44E8-BF32-30C78E0C15B0@u.washington.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
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On Sep 7, 2007, at 8:52 AM, Hal Vaughan wrote:


> On Friday 07 September 2007, Serena Cantor wrote:

>> Thanks! "most of server-related work" are very specialized program I
>> wrote myself.
>>
>> another example: seeding in bittorrent, if memory is big enough and
>> file being served is small enough.
>

> Also, depending on RAM size, even if you think everything can be  
> done in
> memory only, a lot of processes might be using swap space or may be
> writing cache or log files to the disc.


Also, Linux is very aggressive about swapping out idle pages. (Some  
would even say too aggressive.)  Even if you have what you think is  
plenty of RAM, it's quite likely Linux will swap out some stuff in  
order to make more room for the disk cache.



Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 10:06:46 -0700
From: cls@truffula.sj.ca.us
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Subject: Re: why sarge is so noisy
Message-ID: <slrnfe3196.9vh.spambait@truffula.sj.ca.us>

[This message has also been posted to linux.debian.user.]
In article <90FPk-4oB-7@gated-at.bofh.it>, Serena Cantor wrote:

> I have sarge, I use it all the time (it's server)
> The machine is my bedroom and scsi disk make noise from time to time (it's read/writing)

>

> which script cause reading/writing? Let's assume it's default installation. I don't start any
> program myself.  


Look in the directory /etc/cron.hourly and the file /etc/crontab.

There is a nightly process which runs find(1) to update the
file used by locate(1).

There is a nightly logrotate(8).

Every time cron(8) does anything as some other user it
adds entries to /var/log/auth.log.  Even if there is
a minus (-) in front of the logfile name in /etc/syslog.conf,
that entry will be flushed to disk.  The minus only
says to wait for the kernel's periodic file system flush
(every 30 seconds?) rather than flushing it as soon
as it's written.

Set your system clock accurately.  Keep a pad of paper and
an accurate clock next to the machine.  Make a note of when
the noises occur.  See if you can find those exact times
in any of the files in /var/log or its sub directories.
(this would be a good time to learn about ls -t and
grep -B 3 -A 3 12:34 /var/log/syslog | less)
Or any time up to a minute
before the noise, in case you are hearing the file system
flush after the event.  Is the system sending
mail to itself, perhaps trying to report some trivial
configuration problem?  Are you receiving mail from cron
or is it just piling up somewhere?  Are files
growing in /var/spool/mail?


Cameron



Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 11:16:41 -0700
From: tabris <tabris@tabris.net>
To: cms0009@gmail.com
Cc: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Subject: Re: bots for searching
Message-ID: <46E19589.9080108@tabris.net>
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Rick wrote:

> I know there are bots for irc, but are there bots, that can do searchin=

g "the=20

> net" in the background for linux ?

>

> TIA
> Richard
>  =20

You'll need to explain a lot better what you want.
e.g. Search the net for what?
e.g. Present what kind of interface?


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Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 14:09:17 -0400
From: Rick <cms0009@gmail.com>
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Subject: bots for searching
Message-Id: <200709071409.17142.cms0009@gmail.com>
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  charset="us-ascii"
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I know there are bots for irc, but are there bots, that can do searching "the 
net" in the background for linux ?

TIA
Richard



Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 14:26:10 -0400
From: Mark Grieveson <dg135@torfree.net>
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Subject: Re: Unblocking sound card, or adding stream (newbie)
Message-ID: <20070907142610.2a5a9f14@localhost>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Fri,  7 Sep 2007 07:54:23 +0000 (UTC)
debian-user-digest-request@lists.debian.org wrote:


> I have a laptop with a sound card that only supports a
> single stream. (People on #debian helped me figure
> this out.) This is annoying not because i want to play
> twelve different sypmhonies at once through high-def
> systems, but just so i can listen to music while
> getting beeps from Gaim, or whatever.
> 
> If theres no way to do this, bummer i guess. But my
> problem is that sometimes i seem to have something
> blocking the sound card and i cant figure out what it
> is. I dont THINK im running any sound thing ,but then
> if i try to run xmms i get a "something's blocking
> your sound card" message, or if i play a YouTube video
> i just get no sound at all.
> 
> When this happens, how do i find out what's blocking
> hte sound card, and how do i kill this so i can play
> what i want?
> 
> Thanks.



Sound on laptops can be tricky.  One old laptop I had would not work
with alsa, so I had to enable an oss module on boot up by adding a line
to the /etc/modules file.  But I digress.

I'm going to assume that you're using Etch, with alsa for your
soundcard, and that you're using gnome for your desktop environment (if
these assumptions are not correct, then kindly let us know).  So, to
get sound working on gaim, and other gnome applications, open
Desktop/Preferences/Sound (from the menu in the top left corner), and,
having opened the Sound Preferences dialogue, check the "Enable
software sound mixing (ESD)" box, along with the "Play system sounds"
box, and then you will have all the bells and whistles that go with the
desktop environment, and its programs.  Make sure you have gnome-media
installed.

The fact that xmms and/or youtube doesn't give you sound is worrying.
Do you have alsa-base, alsa-oss, alsa-tools, and alsa-utils installed?
If not, install them (via synaptic or aptitude -- aptitude, if you know
what you're doing, is better, but if not, then synaptic is better).
Try restarting your system, to see if sound is set up automatically (it
should).  If not, try running "alsaconf" in the terminal as root
(without quotes).

Hopefully this will help.  Good luck Jen!

Mark



Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 13:29:33 -0500
From: Ron Johnson <ron.l.johnson@cox.net>
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Subject: [OT] questions (was Re: why sarge is so noisy)
Message-ID: <46E1988D.9050206@cox.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
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On 09/07/07 10:50, Hal Vaughan wrote:
[snip]

> 
> Can we at least offer suggestions or explain why a question is silly?


A truly valid question.


> Personally, as someone who spent a decade or more teaching, much of that 
> time in special ed,


/Special Ed/ is too vague a term.

Mentally retarded or behaviorally "challenged"?


>                     I've learned that there is no dumb (or silly) 
> question but there are bad answers.


There are *smart* questions, ergo there are *stupid* questions.

(Whether OP's question was stupid or not depends on her current
level of computer/Linux knowledge.)

- --
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA  USA

Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day.
Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good!

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Can't find what you're looking for?X

Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 11:41:34 -0700
From: Raquel <raquel@thericehouse.net>
To: cms0009@gmail.com
Cc: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Subject: Re: bots for searching
Message-Id: <20070907114134.3d5c264e.raquel@thericehouse.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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On Fri, 7 Sep 2007 14:09:17 -0400
Rick <cms0009@gmail.com> wrote:


> I know there are bots for irc, but are there bots, that can do
> searching "the  net" in the background for linux ?
> 
> TIA
> Richard
> 
> 
> -- 
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@lists.debian.org 
> with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact
> listmaster@lists.debian.org
> 


In Debian, check out "mnogosearch".

-- 
Raquel
============================================================
Teach me to feel another's woe, To hide the fault I see, That mercy
I to others show, That mercy show to me.
  --Alexander Pope (The Universal Prayer)



Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 13:40:33 -0500
From: "Mumia W.." <paduille.4061.mumia.w+nospam@earthlink.net>
To: Debian User List <debian-user@lists.debian.org>
Subject: Re: why sarge is so noisy
Message-ID: <46E19B21.8010207@earthlink.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On 09/07/2007 11:58 AM, David Brodbeck wrote:

> 
> Also, Linux is very aggressive about swapping out idle pages. (Some 
> would even say too aggressive.)  Even if you have what you think is 
> plenty of RAM, it's quite likely Linux will swap out some stuff in order 
> to make more room for the disk cache.
> 


Is there a way to disable this aggressive swapping?

End of debian-user-digest Digest V2007 Issue #2325
**************************************************

Received on Fri Sep  7 15:34:04 2007

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.8 : Sun Oct 07 2007 - 07:54:30 EDT

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