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debian-user-digest Digest V2007 #2492

From: <debian-user-digest-request(at)lists.debian.org>
Date: Thu Sep 27 2007 - 20:42:08 EDT


Content-Type: text/plain

debian-user-digest Digest Volume 2007 : Issue 2492

Today's Topics: 

  Re: bash, xbindkeys and dual screen   [ Andrew Sackville-West  ]
  Re: Lenny vs. Etch + Backports        [ Michael C  ]
  Re: Tool for document management      [ Florian Kulzer  ]
  Re: efficiency of windows managers    [ Amit Uttamchandani  ]
  Re: efficiency of windows managers    [ Preston Boyington 

Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 13:33:09 -0700


From: Andrew Sackville-West <andrew@farwestbilliards.com>
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org


Subject: Re: bash, xbindkeys and dual screen
Message-ID: <20070927203309.GT4870@localhost.localdomain>
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On Thu, Sep 27, 2007 at 04:08:39PM -0400, Nguyen, Cuong K. wrote:

> On 9/27/07, Andrew Sackville-West <andrew@farwestbilliards.com> wrote:
> >
> > Cuong, I'm curious, running dual-screen myself, about your setup. I am
> > running xinerama and that combines my two screens into one large
> > one. The mouse flows effortlessly from one to the other. I find it
> > works very well with a tiling WM (wmii here) and just love it. What do
> > you find to be the advantages/disadvantages to have two truly separate
> > screens?
> >
> >
> > A
>=20
>=20


> Hi Andrew,


>=20

> A quick question: what does "a tiling WM (wmii here)" mean?
Do you need help?X

a tiling WM is a WM that "tiles" the windows. That is, the windows
don't overlap, but rather occupy as much space as possible and are
laid out on the screen like tiles. wmii is one of the many tiling
WM's. It works by assigning the maximum amount of space to a window
and automatically sizing the window to that space. So with one window
open, it gets the full screen automatically. With two, they share the
screen more or less equally (that's configurable), splitting the
screen horizontally. You can add more windows as desired and the
others will all resize and adjust automatically to make the most of
available screen. You can shift windows into separate columns so that
one window gets full screen height on, say, the left 2/3's of the
screen while the others share the remaining 1/3 of the screen.=20



>=20

> For my setup: I have one flat monitor (main monitor) and another monitor =

is

> TV, and I want to watch movies on TV and work on another monitor, and tha=

t I

> do not want my mouse bothers the TV when viewing movies, that is why I se=

tup

> so that the mouse can not move from one monitor to another (the mouse is
> bounded as normal monitor).

okay, that makes sense.=20


> Another advantage, I "think" but have not tried
> (will try it soon), is that if you have two mice and two keyboards, you c=

an

> work on one monitor when your child is playing game on another monitor. T=

wo

> separately working desktop with one CPU is cool, right?

Kent West does this and calls it dual-seat. search the archives for
his insights on doing this.=20



A



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Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 15:35:28 -0500


From: cothrige <cothrige@bellsouth.net>


To: debian-user@lists.debian.org


Subject: Re: efficiency of windows managers
Message-ID: <873awzj17z.fsf@celephais.home.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii



"Javier Vasquez" <jevv.cr@gmail.com> writes:


>


> Don't know about windowMaker, but you might try:
>


> fluxbox
> icewm
> pekwm
> fvwm2
>


> You might find some pretty light, and some besides offering lots of
> fun and good looking features...  I use fluxbox and a machine with
> 512M main, and 64M ati-rage is performing pretty well...

I know my choices may seem rather extreme by some, but if one is really
seeking a lightweight wm I would suggest adding xmonad (with dzen2) to
the above list.  I have tried many small tools in this area, including
ratpoison, ion3, and stumpwm, and xmonad is easily the fastest and has
the smallest memory footprint I have found yet.  As I have no experience
with haskell compiling it was something of a learning experience, but it
really wasn't too bad and has been more than worth it.  It does just
about everything I ever liked in ion3 (the next smallest IMHO), and all
without Tuomo! :-)



Patrick



Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 21:35:40 +0100


From: Michael C <sieverfrisch@yahoo.ie>


To: debian-user <debian-user@lists.debian.org>
Subject: Re: Lenny vs. Etch + Backports

Message-ID: <46FC141C.8070309@yahoo.ie>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Can we help you?X

Johannes Wiedersich wrote:


> I am not sure if I understand correctly: What are your objections
> against debian's way of security fixes?

Let's take the example of Seamonkey/Iceape. Officially EOL'd as of May,
the 1.0.x branch's security status is no longer being actively
investigated by upstream developers, but assuming that Lenny takes as
long to come to fruition as Etch, come Debian's next major release its
developers -- with fewer resources than upstream, I should imagine --
will have been searching out and patching vulnerabilities in an
abandoned codebase for more than 20 months.



I've no doubt that the resulting code's more stable than upstream's,
it's just that I'd rather place my trust in the upstream codebase (or
Debian patches based thereon).



Not a very original objection, but a reasonable-sounding pretext for
moving away from Stable ;)



Best wishes,



Michael


Can't find what you're looking for?X

Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 22:25:27 +0200


From: Florian Kulzer <florian.kulzer+debian@icfo.es>
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org


Subject: Re: Tool for document management

Message-ID: <20070927202527.GA15721@localhost>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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On Wed, Sep 26, 2007 at 10:39:55 -0700, David Brodbeck wrote:

>


> On Sep 25, 2007, at 7:17 PM, John Hasler wrote:
>
>> David Brodbeck writes:
>>> TeX is awesome for writing books and scientific papers.  If you're

Don't know where to look next?X

>>> writing a letter to Grandma, though, OpenOffice is better suited.
>>
>> Now _that_ sounds like driving a semi truck to the supermarket to pick up 
>> a
>> bottle of milk.
>


> Depends on your perspective, I guess.  It just feels like by the time I get 
> all the preliminary verbiage TeX needs typed out, I could have written the 
> whole letter in OO.  Also, looking at my copy of 'The Not So Short 
> Introduction To LaTeX,' it's not clear to me what document class I'd use.  
> They're all going to be a bit clumsy and inappropriate.  It's not an 
> "article", it's not a "report", and it's certainly not a "book"...

I like the "scrlttr2" class provided by koma-script (which is included
in the texlive-latex-recommended package). It takes care of all the
formatting, including details such as the exact position of the address
and the matching foldmarks for envelopes with an address window. The
letterhead can be stored in a separate file, which makes the source of
the individual letters more easily readable and provides a convenient
mechanism to switch between different letterheads, e.g. for business,
private, other languages...



If anyone is interested, here is an example (PDF, 31 KB):


http://users.icfo.es/Florian.Kulzer/latex-letter/letter.pdf

(I replaced the logo of my institute with a simple dummy to make the
 file smaller; most of the remaining size is taken up by the embedded
 latex fonts.)



The source files are here (tarball, 5.6 KB):


http://users.icfo.es/Florian.Kulzer/latex-letter/latex-letter.tar.bz2


-- 
Regards,            | 
http://users.icfo.es/Florian.Kulzer
          Florian   |


Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 16:41:12 -0400
From: "Manu Hack" <manuhack@gmail.com>
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Subject: Re: efficiency of windows managers
Message-ID: <50af02ed0709271341v48753a53k6e58b2e79ec4ed81@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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On 9/27/07, Andy <1aw@gmx.de> wrote:

> Am Donnerstag, 27. September 2007 21:02 schrieb Manu Hack:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I have a general question which I got when trying out different
> > windows managers/desktop environments.  When I try to use windowmaker
> > (I wanted to make my computer faster as it's getting old), it
> > certainly is fast for initialization.  But after that when around
> > 10-15 windows are opened and distributed in different workspaces, I
> > found moving around different workspaces and windows pretty slow (I
> > compared with KDE which I usually use.) and thus I still decided to
> > stick with KDE for the moment.  Maybe the comparison is not fair as
> > KDE definitely needs longer time to initialize.  But my question is,
> > is there a reason for that?
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > Manu
> You might need more RAM

>

> regards Andy :-)


I agree. :) But I'm still confused as to why KDE can outperform (at
least up to my experience) a supposedly light weight wm (maybe
windowmaker is not lightweight enough, will try fluxbox later) on the
same machine.  Is that because of something like memory management or
something like that?

The reason I'm asking is that I want to change because before I
thought I can improve the efficiency by using a more lightweight wm
but it turns out it's not true in my case.  So maybe as long as the
memory is enough to use KDE (or GNOME), KDE can be faster than those
lightweight wm because they use more memory?

Manu



Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 12:52:48 -0700
From: Amit Uttamchandani <atu13439@csun.edu>
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Subject: Re: efficiency of windows managers
Message-Id: <20070927125248.daf5bbd7.atu13439@csun.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I understand your frustration.

I have an old powerbook laptop (Speed: 500MHz, RAM: 512MB). Mac OS X, GNOME, and KDE hogged to much resources. So I started from scratch and installed a base install of Debian. I then installed just the necessary packages and I am using a very very lightweight window manager called DWM (http://www.suckless.org/wiki/dwm). I can't tell you enough how beautiful this window manager is. Very very small and efficient. In fact, I am a much more productive user because of this window manager. It just makes like so much easier (for me at least). There are no dependencies except basic X11 dev headers. It only installs one binary file. It takes getting used to and maybe a few tweaks to get it right but it is definitely worth it.

Try it out. If you have any questions regarding DWM, please post back.

-- 
Amit Uttamchandani <atu13439@csun.edu>



Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 14:30:54 -0700
From: David Brodbeck <brodbd@u.washington.edu>
To: "Debian-user (debian help)" <debian-user@lists.debian.org>
Subject: Re: efficiency of windows managers
Message-Id: <BEE297C3-7EA3-407E-A855-536D6D244B2F@u.washington.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Sep 27, 2007, at 12:52 PM, Amit Uttamchandani wrote:


> I understand your frustration.

>

> I have an old powerbook laptop (Speed: 500MHz, RAM: 512MB). Mac OS  
> X, GNOME, and KDE hogged to much resources. So I started from  
> scratch and installed a base install of Debian. I then installed  
> just the necessary packages and I am using a very very lightweight  
> window manager called DWM (http://www.suckless.org/wiki/dwm).


I have to say, the screenshot has me intrigued.  It's got a  
pleasingly geeky sort of retro text GUI look, like something Xerox  
PARC might have come up with in the 1970s. ;)



Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 14:44:00 -0700
From: consultores agropecuarios <consultores1@gmail.com>
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Subject: Re: Penalty of SELinux?
Message-Id: <1190929440.8292.2.camel@localhost>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

El jue, 27-09-2007 a las 19:54 +0200, Michelle Konzack escribi=C3=B3:

> Am 2007-09-22 11:29:09, schrieb Douglas A. Tutty:
> > I run a bunch of old machines. =20
> >=20
> > Now that SELinux is integrated (compiled in) to various pieces of
> > Debian, is there a penalty even if its not activated?
> >=20
> > Thanks,
> >=20
> > Doug.
> ------------------------- END OF REPLIED MESSAGE ----------------------=

---
>=20

> Since SElinux is NOT ACTIVATED by default, there is NO PENALTY.

>=20

NOT ACTIVATED, hummm...
from dmesg:
Security Framework v1.0.0 initialized
SELinux:  Disabled at boot.


> Thanks, Greetings and nice Day
>     Michelle Konzack
>     Systemadministrator
>     Tamay Dogan Network
>     Debian GNU/Linux Consultant

>=20
>=20



Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 16:56:40 -0500
From: Ron Johnson <ron.l.johnson@cox.net>
To: David Brodbeck <brodbd@u.washington.edu>
Cc: "Debian-user (debian help)" <debian-user@lists.debian.org>
Subject: Re: efficiency of windows managers
Message-ID: <46FC2718.1020904@cox.net>
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On 09/27/07 16:30, David Brodbeck wrote:

> 
> On Sep 27, 2007, at 12:52 PM, Amit Uttamchandani wrote:
> 

>> I understand your frustration.
>>
>> I have an old powerbook laptop (Speed: 500MHz, RAM: 512MB). Mac OS X,
>> GNOME, and KDE hogged to much resources. So I started from scratch and
>> installed a base install of Debian. I then installed just the
>> necessary packages and I am using a very very lightweight window
>> manager called DWM (http://www.suckless.org/wiki/dwm).

> 
> I have to say, the screenshot has me intrigued.  It's got a pleasingly
> geeky sort of retro text GUI look, like something Xerox PARC might have
> come up with in the 1970s. ;)


Heh.  To me, it looks like a very spare DESQview.

- --
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA  USA

Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day.
Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good!

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Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 16:59:56 -0500
From: Preston Boyington <preston.lists@gmail.com>
To: debian-user <debian-user@lists.debian.org>
Subject: Re: efficiency of windows managers
Message-ID: <46FC27DC.5040007@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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Javier Vasquez wrote:

> 
> Don't know about windowMaker, but you might try:
> 
> fluxbox
> icewm
> pekwm
> fvwm2
> 
> You might find some pretty light, and some besides offering lots of
> fun and good looking features...  I use fluxbox and a machine with
> 512M main, and 64M ati-rage is performing pretty well...
> 


I am also a fluxbox fan, but recently I have started playing with
fvwm-crystal (http://fvwm-crystal.org/) on my Toshiba laptop and it is
pretty nice.

and fyi, i use debian with fluxbox on my P133, 16mb, compaq laptop. :D



Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 18:03:18 -0400
From: "Nguyen, Cuong K." <cuongkieunguyen@gmail.com>
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Subject: Re: bash, xbindkeys and dual screen
Message-ID: <b36fe63b0709271503p14a561dew9e7aca87bcec8ff3@mail.gmail.com>
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On 9/27/07, Andrew Sackville-West <andrew@farwestbilliards.com> wrote:
>
>

> a tiling WM is a WM that "tiles" the windows. That is, the windows
> don't overlap, but rather occupy as much space as possible and are
> laid out on the screen like tiles. wmii is one of the many tiling
> WM's. It works by assigning the maximum amount of space to a window
> and automatically sizing the window to that space. So with one window
> open, it gets the full screen automatically. With two, they share the
> screen more or less equally (that's configurable), splitting the
> screen horizontally. You can add more windows as desired and the
> others will all resize and adjust automatically to make the most of
> available screen. You can shift windows into separate columns so that
> one window gets full screen height on, say, the left 2/3's of the
> screen while the others share the remaining 1/3 of the screen.



Oh, that is a nice feature that I do not know of.

>

> > For my setup: I have one flat monitor (main monitor) and another monitor
> is
> > TV, and I want to watch movies on TV and work on another monitor, and
> that I
> > do not want my mouse bothers the TV when viewing movies, that is why I
> setup
> > so that the mouse can not move from one monitor to another (the mouse is
> > bounded as normal monitor).

>

> okay, that makes sense.

>

> > Another advantage, I "think" but have not tried
> > (will try it soon), is that if you have two mice and two keyboards, you
> can
> > work on one monitor when your child is playing game on another monitor.
> Two
> > separately working desktop with one CPU is cool, right?

>

> Kent West does this and calls it dual-seat. search the archives for
> his insights on doing this.



Yes, dual-seat is what I need, and I find it very convenient and powerful.


> > I am running xinerama and that combines my two screens into one large
> > > one. The mouse flows effortlessly from one to the other. I find it
> > > works very well with a tiling WM (wmii here) and just love it. What do
> > > you find to be the advantages/disadvantages to have two truly separate
> > > screens?



Now you have a sense of why I need dual-seat. What about your setup of
xinerama? What do you find it to be advantages to dual-screen? Actually I
fried xinerama before, but the mouse problem bothered me a lot so that I
switched to dual-screen.

KC.

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On 9/27/07, <b class="gmail_sendername">Andrew Sackville-West</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:andrew@farwestbilliards.com">andrew@farwestbilliards.com</a>&gt; wrote:<div><span class="gmail_quote"></span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<br>a tiling WM is a WM that &quot;tiles&quot; the windows. That is, the windows<br>don&#39;t overlap, but rather occupy as much space as possible and are<br>laid out on the screen like tiles. wmii is one of the many tiling
<br>WM&#39;s. It works by assigning the maximum amount of space to a window<br>and automatically sizing the window to that space. So with one window<br>open, it gets the full screen automatically. With two, they share the
<br>screen more or less equally (that&#39;s configurable), splitting the<br>screen horizontally. You can add more windows as desired and the<br>others will all resize and adjust automatically to make the most of<br>available screen. You can shift windows into separate columns so that
<br>one window gets full screen height on, say, the left 2/3&#39;s of the<br>screen while the others share the remaining 1/3 of the screen.</blockquote><div><br>Oh, that is a nice feature that I do not know of. <br></div>
<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">&gt;<br>&gt; For my setup: I have one flat monitor (main monitor) and another monitor is
<br>&gt; TV, and I want to watch movies on TV and work on another monitor, and that I<br>&gt; do not want my mouse bothers the TV when viewing movies, that is why I setup<br>&gt; so that the mouse can not move from one monitor to another (the mouse is
<br>&gt; bounded as normal monitor).<br><br>okay, that makes sense.<br><br>&gt; Another advantage, I &quot;think&quot; but have not tried<br>&gt; (will try it soon), is that if you have two mice and two keyboards, you can
<br>&gt; work on one monitor when your child is playing game on another monitor. Two<br>&gt; separately working desktop with one CPU is cool, right?<br><br>Kent West does this and calls it dual-seat. search the archives for
<br>his insights on doing this.</blockquote><div><br>Yes, dual-seat is what I need, and I find it very convenient and powerful.<br></div></div>
<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">&gt; &gt; I am running xinerama and that combines my two screens into one large<br>
&gt; &gt; one. The mouse flows effortlessly from one to the other. I find it<br>
&gt; &gt; works very well with a tiling WM (wmii here) and just love it. What do<br>
&gt; &gt; you find to be the advantages/disadvantages to have two truly separate<br>
&gt; &gt; screens?</blockquote><div><br>Now you have a sense of why I need dual-seat. What about your setup of xinerama? What do you find it to be advantages to dual-screen? Actually I fried xinerama before, but the mouse problem bothered me a lot so that I switched to dual-screen.
<br><br>KC.<br></div><br><br>

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Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 15:33:42 -0700
From: Andrew Sackville-West <andrew@farwestbilliards.com>
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Subject: Re: efficiency of windows managers
Message-ID: <20070927223341.GV4870@localhost.localdomain>
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On Thu, Sep 27, 2007 at 04:41:12PM -0400, Manu Hack wrote:

> On 9/27/07, Andy <1aw@gmx.de> wrote:
> > Am Donnerstag, 27. September 2007 21:02 schrieb Manu Hack:
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > I have a general question which I got when trying out different
> > > windows managers/desktop environments.  When I try to use windowmaker
> > > (I wanted to make my computer faster as it's getting old), it
> > > certainly is fast for initialization.  But after that when around
> > > 10-15 windows are opened and distributed in different workspaces, I
> > > found moving around different workspaces and windows pretty slow (I
> > > compared with KDE which I usually use.) and thus I still decided to
> > > stick with KDE for the moment.  Maybe the comparison is not fair as
> > > KDE definitely needs longer time to initialize.  But my question is,
> > > is there a reason for that?
> > >
> > > Manu
> > You might need more RAM

>=20

> I agree. :) But I'm still confused as to why KDE can outperform (at
> least up to my experience) a supposedly light weight wm (maybe
> windowmaker is not lightweight enough, will try fluxbox later) on the
> same machine.  Is that because of something like memory management or
> something like that?


its probably got more to do with memory *use* than management. By that
I mean, you may end up wasting memory by using kde apps within a
different wm. The kde apps will load up whole bunches of kde libs in
order to function in addition to the libs used by whatever wm you're
using. You haven't said what your 10-15 windows are doing, so I'm only
guessing. Also, it what ways does kde perform better than windowmaker?
is it in overall response of the system? screen drawing? window
dragging? just switching from one app to another within the same
workspace?

>=20

> The reason I'm asking is that I want to change because before I
> thought I can improve the efficiency by using a more lightweight wm
> but it turns out it's not true in my case.  So maybe as long as the
> memory is enough to use KDE (or GNOME), KDE can be faster than those
> lightweight wm because they use more memory?


you should do some more comprehensive testing to see if you can figure
out what's going on. keep an eye on a top instance or two and sort
them by processor usage and memory usage. That will give some
insight.=20

A

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Call Pantek today for Open Source Technical Support at 1-877-546-8934 - 24/7/365X

Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 15:37:54 -0700
From: Andrew Sackville-West <andrew@farwestbilliards.com>
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Subject: Re: bash, xbindkeys and dual screen
Message-ID: <20070927223754.GW4870@localhost.localdomain>
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On Thu, Sep 27, 2007 at 06:03:18PM -0400, Nguyen, Cuong K. wrote:
>=20
>=20

> Now you have a sense of why I need dual-seat. What about your setup of
> xinerama? What do you find it to be advantages to dual-screen? Actually I
> fried xinerama before, but the mouse problem bothered me a lot so that I
> switched to dual-screen.


I haven't tried two distinct screens, so I can't directly compare
them. I find the moving of the mouse from one screen to the other to
be intuitive and natural for me, but in reality, I rarely use the
mouse anymore. I probably don't need to use xinerama except that it
easily flows with my usage of wmii. For example, in wmii to move a
window into a column on the right of your "screen" you use
Alt-shift-l. I have my wmii set up to split the column at 50%. Since
my screens are the same size, that puts the split right at the edge of
the monitors. I always have more than one window open so I get two
screens each with a full screen window in it. It just naturally works
well for me.=20

A

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Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 17:51:25 -0400
From: Victor Munoz <vmunoz@macul.ciencias.uchile.cl>
To: debian-user <debian-user@lists.debian.org>
Subject: Re: Missing files in locatedb
Message-ID: <20070927215125.GI26644@llacolen.ciencias.uchile.cl>
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On Thu, Sep 27, 2007 at 02:53:18PM -0500, Mumia W.. wrote:

> 
> Check /etc/updatedb.conf and the LOCALUSER variable. LOCALUSER is set to 
> 'nobody' by default, and 'nobody' has no ability to view directories 
> with -rwx------ permissions.
> 


That was the problem, indeed. Thanks,

Victor



Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 16:58:27 -0700
From: Amit Uttamchandani <atu13439@csun.edu>
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Subject: Re: efficiency of windows managers
Message-Id: <20070927165827.b3977c15.atu13439@csun.edu>
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> I have to say, the screenshot has me intrigued.  It's got a  
> pleasingly geeky sort of retro text GUI look, like something Xerox  
> PARC might have come up with in the 1970s. ;)
> 


It is very efficient. Especially tiling modes. I can't use any other Windowmanager now. I just can't. With DWM, you're focused on the application and the task at hand. Try it out.

-- 
Amit Uttamchandani <atu13439@csun.edu>

End of debian-user-digest Digest V2007 Issue #2492
**************************************************

Received on Thu Sep 27 20:42:23 2007
Confused? Frustrated?X

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