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debian-user-digest Digest V2007 #2954

From: <debian-user-digest-request(at)lists.debian.org>
Date: Tue Dec 04 2007 - 19:04:09 EST


Content-Type: text/plain

debian-user-digest Digest Volume 2007 : Issue 2954

Today's Topics: 

  Re: Preferred Backup Method?          [ Michael Pobega  ]
  Re: [OT] sandpaper [Was: Re: results  [ Andrew Sackville-West  ]
  Re: mount USB drive at boot: fsck fa  [ Bogart Salzberg  ]
  aptitude not seeing updates in repos  [ "Todd A. Jacobs" 
  Re: [OT] sandpaper [Was: Re: results  [ Andrew Sackville-West <andrew@farwe ]



Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 17:19:48 -0500


From: Michael Pobega <pobega@gmail.com>


To: debian-user@lists.debian.org


Subject: Re: Preferred Backup Method?

Message-ID: <20071204221948.GA3799@digital-haze.net>
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On Tue, Dec 04, 2007 at 04:04:47PM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote:

> On 12/04/07 15:09, Michael Pobega wrote:
> > What is d-u's preferred method of backups? Now that I'm running servers
> > on my system (Apache, MySQL, SSH, etc.) I need to find a good method of
> > backing up, because no matter how much security someone has things may
> > still go wrong.
> > 
> > So list your preferred methods of creating/restoring backups and the
> > pros and cons. Thanks!
> 
> *Much* more information needed.
> 

Sorry, I wasn't thinking.


Do you need help?X
> How much stuff?  50MB?  5GB?  500GB?  5TB?
> 

80GB HDD. It isn't full, of course, but that's the maximum (Currently
about 45 GB)


> How compressible is it?  Text/MySQL files or MP3s and JPGs?
> 

I wouldn't know the answer to that questions.


> How important is it?  Your own stuff, or a business' stuff?
> 

It's pretty important; It's my own stuff, it has all of my school work,
programming work, pictures, videos, and configuration files on it.


> How big of a window do you have to back it up?  30 minutes at 23:15,
> and you're fired if it goes past midnight?  All night between 17:30
> and 07:30?
> 

A weekly night-backup would be my preferred method. 


Do you need more help?X
> How often will the lusers will "Michael, this stupid computer ate my
> work.  Bring it back!!" (Meaning, of course, that they
> stupidly/carelessly deleted/overwrote it.)  If it's a database, will
> the developers want regular copies restored for testing?
> 

It's just my own stuff...The odds are probably low of someone deleting
my work by accident, but better safe than sorry.


> Frequency?  Nightly, weekly, every-other-day?
> 

Weekly.


> Retention?  Keep backups for a month?  Quarter?  Year?  7 years?
> 

I'd probably keep backups for two weeks, so I've have two backups at any
given time.


> Budget?  Always a killer...
> 

I have another laptop sitting around with a 60GB HDD; Could I use that
as a backup?


Can we help you?X

Otherwise all I have is a 4GB pendrive and no money (But I could get my
hands on an 80GB External HDD easily)


> As for backing it up, tar.  Works like a champ.
> 

Just `tar -cvvf backup-`date`.tar /`? Is it really that simple?



  •   -- 
If programmers deserve to be rewarded for creating innovative
programs, by the same token they deserve to be punished if they
restrict the use of these programs. 

  
    •   Richard Stallman
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Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 14:20:11 -0800


From: Andrew Sackville-West <andrew@farwestbilliards.com>
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org


Subject: Re: [OT] sandpaper [Was: Re: results: debian-user's favourite

        FLOSS]


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Can't find what you're looking for?X

On Tue, Dec 04, 2007 at 01:06:36PM -0500, Douglas A. Tutty wrote:

> On Tue, Dec 04, 2007 at 08:25:46AM -0800, Andrew Sackville-West wrote:
> > On Tue, Dec 04, 2007 at 09:45:07AM -0500, Douglas A. Tutty wrote:
> > > On Mon, Dec 03, 2007 at 09:59:52AM -0800, Andrew Sackville-West wrote:
> =20
> > > For pure woodworking (as opposed to, say, surface prep prior to
> > > repainting something on the house), I don't use sandpaper at all.  My
> > > shop doesn't have it.  I use scrapers if I need or, or leave a true
> > > planed surface.
> >=20
> > Nice way to take my analogy as a means to veer wildly OT ;-)
>=20


> There's a thinn veneer of T if you hook the router up to your debian box
> for CNC :)

been thinking of that, but I'm starting to look more towards reprap...
www.reprap.org




=2E..



>=20

> If you can only have one woodworking tool,

I meant within the context of the router/shaper question.


> make it a combination stone.

?


> Then you can make every other tool eventually.  To make life easier, if
> you can only have one tool, make it a vertical milling machine.  You can
> then make a metal lathe and between the two, you can make anything
> in the world, eventually.
Don't know where to look next?X

I've always said given a decent pocket knife and enough time I could
rebuild civilization...



maybe that should be my sig.



A



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Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 14:23:26 -0800


From: Andrew Sackville-West <andrew@farwestbilliards.com>
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org


Subject: Re: SUDO


Message-ID: <20071204222326.GD9741@localhost.localdomain>
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Confused? Frustrated?X

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On Tue, Dec 04, 2007 at 11:57:50AM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote:

> On 12/04/07 04:59, Martin Marcher wrote:
> > 2007/12/3, Henning Follmann <hfollmann@itcfollmann.com>:
> >> Add erik to the sudores file?
> >>
> >> visudo is a wrapper around vi to edit the /etc/sudoers file.
> >=20
> > well not exactly vi.
> >=20
> > It uses $EDITOR if that can't be found /usr/bin/editor (iirc) which on
> > debian uses the update alternatives system. So there's no need to be
> > afraid of vi/vim when you don't want to use it.
> >=20
> > Note: I use vi/vim but there may be people that live on the dark side :)
> >=20
> >=20
>=20


> "Why are we hiding from the police, daddy?"
> "They use Emacs, son, and we use vi."

First the came for the vi users, but I wasn't a vi user so I didn't
speak up...



A



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Call Pantek today for Open Source Technical Support at 1-877-546-8934 - 24/7/365X


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Do you need help?X

Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 14:28:11 -0800


From: Andrew Sackville-West <andrew@farwestbilliards.com>
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org


Subject: Re: [OT] Re: Mounting a USB Mass Storage Device
Message-ID: <20071204222810.GE9741@localhost.localdomain>
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On Mon, Dec 03, 2007 at 09:26:02PM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote:

> On 12/03/07 21:17, Nyizsnyik Ferenc wrote:
> >>> Yes, that's a nice idea. I myself would follow your advice, but my
> >>> wife doesn't let me to... :)=20
> >> sorry dear, that harddrive died and took windows with it. Fortunately,
> >> I had just backed up all your data. Oh, and look! Debian is still
> >> working! ;-)
> >=20
> > Unfortunately that won't work: she's an IT (and math and physics)
> > teacher. And she cooks too well, so I don't want to risk...
>=20


> Unless there's some specific Windows-only app that she *needs*, you
> can bamboozle her and get away with it.  After all, unless a power
> spike burns out the circuits, a deap drive looks the same as a
> working drive.


>=20

> Remember Man Law #1: deny, deny, deny.
Do you need more help?X

Honest sweetie! I don't know how that nail got all the way through the
drive!=20



A



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Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 13:06:36 -0500


From: "Douglas A. Tutty" <dtutty@porchlight.ca>
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org


Subject: Re: [OT] sandpaper [Was: Re: results: debian-user's favourite FLOSS]

Message-ID: <20071204180636.GA7520@titan.hooton>
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On Tue, Dec 04, 2007 at 08:25:46AM -0800, Andrew Sackville-West wrote:

> On Tue, Dec 04, 2007 at 09:45:07AM -0500, Douglas A. Tutty wrote:
> > On Mon, Dec 03, 2007 at 09:59:52AM -0800, Andrew Sackville-West wrote:

 

Can we help you?X
> > For pure woodworking (as opposed to, say, surface prep prior to
> > repainting something on the house), I don't use sandpaper at all.  My
> > shop doesn't have it.  I use scrapers if I need or, or leave a true
> > planed surface.
> 
> Nice way to take my analogy as a means to veer wildly OT ;-)

There's a thinn veneer of T if you hook the router up to your debian box
for CNC :)


> 
> I'm no fan of sandpaper unless it's attached to a machine to do the
> sanding for me. I love a planed or scraped surface but have little
> opportunity to produce one. 
> 

How sad.
 

> > By the time you buy a router and either buy or build a good solid router
> > table, you could have bought a 2 HP shaper.  The only advantage to the
> > router route :) is to have a portable router or if you are in an
> > apartment where plunking a 500# machine down in the spare bedroom would
> > go over like, well, a 500# shop tool.
> 
> If you can only have one tool, a decent router is a good choice. I
> don't disagree about the shaper vs router and table, but it's really
> hard to: trim laminate, edge or groove large panels, make key-holes,
> mortise hinge plates, etc. At a minimum (for the work I do, anyway)
> I'd need a nice laminate trimmer. and probably a router as well. MIght
> as well just use the router which does all those things reasonably
> well for a lot less money (up front).

If you can only have one woodworking tool, make it a combination stone.
Then you can make every other tool eventually.  To make life easier, if
you can only have one tool, make it a vertical milling machine.  You can
then make a metal lathe and between the two, you can make anything
in the world, eventually.


> 
> > 
> > While we're at it, I'm not a fan of the table saw either.  They only
> > come into their own with sheet stock; I never use sheet stock.  For
> > solid stock, I used the bandsaw then cleaned it up on the jointer or
> > shaper, back when I had a full shop.  Now I just do it by hand.
> 
> huh. I use my table saw for everything. I"ve even made cove moldings
> on it. But, to paraphrase someone else, when its the only tool you
> have, everything begins to look like sheet stock. To each their own
> though. 

Yeah, if your work revolves around sheet-stock and laminates, then a
table saw and router are the way to go.


Can't find what you're looking for?X

Doug.



Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 13:08:32 -0500


From: "Douglas A. Tutty" <dtutty@porchlight.ca>
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org


Subject: Re: mount USB drive at boot: fsck failure -> kernel upgrade

Message-ID: <20071204180832.GB7520@titan.hooton>
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On Tue, Dec 04, 2007 at 09:51:27AM -0500, Bogart Salzberg wrote:

> On Dec 3, 2007, at 8:28 PM, Ron Johnson wrote:
> >On 12/03/07 18:51, Bogart Salzberg wrote:
> >>
> >>I'm running the original Etch kernel on this machine, "Linux version
> >>2.6.18-4-amd64 (Debian 2.6.18.dfsg.1-12)".
> >
> >Upgrade to the latest kernel.  If for no other reason than you
> >shouldn't be running such an old kernel.
> >
> Would you personally use the kernel from "testing" on a production  
> box? Is it really as simple as "apt-get upgrade linux-image" ->  
> restart -> done? I've been cautious about using packages from  
> testing, because they seem to depend on a lot of other packages from  
> testing and I'm nervous about the snowball effect on a box that is  
> supposed to be "stable".
> 

The most recent stable kernel is 2.6.18-5, so try upgrading to that.



Doug.



Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2007 15:42:49 -0600


From: Ron Johnson <ron.l.johnson@cox.net>
To:  debian-user@lists.debian.org


Subject: Re: OT: Socket A motherboard

Message-ID: <4755C9D9.4010705@cox.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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Don't know where to look next?X
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On 12/04/07 11:30, Cassiano Bertol Leal wrote:

> Ron Johnson wrote:
>> On 12/03/07 20:59, Sam Leon wrote:
>>> Ron Johnson wrote:
>>>> And *none* will have SATA.
>>>>
>>> Do you mean sataII?  There are alot of socket A boards that have sata,
>>> the nf7-s v2 included.
>> I'm surprised.  But then Wikipedia tells me that it's aka Socket
>> 462, so it's lasted longer than I thought it did.


> 
> 
> Why is it surprising? P4's are still alive and many have support for
> SATA.


Alive as in "still works"?  Or alive as in "still being fabricated"?



Unless I'm totally out of the loop 32-bit Athlons and P4s haven't
been fabbed in more than a year.


>        I actually find my Athlon XP Barton to be more responsive than
> some P4-HT that I have used. Why would it not support SATA?
> Look at the A7N8X from ASUS, for example.
> 
> If you google for "socket a" +"sata", you'll get many...
  •   --
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA  USA




%SYSTEM-F-FISH, my hovercraft is full of eels
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Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 16:49:53 -0500


From: Bogart Salzberg <webmaster@inkfist.com>
To: debian users <debian-user@lists.debian.org>
Subject: Re: mount USB drive at boot: fsck failure

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Confused? Frustrated?X

On Dec 4, 2007, at 11:48 AM, Ron Johnson wrote:


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> On 12/04/07 08:45, Bogart Salzberg wrote:
>> Running "lshw" on the box shows the motherboard as a Dell 0UW457,  
>> v. A03
>> with socket M2 and Nvidia GeForce 6150LE chipset. The BIOS version is
>> about a year old (12/09/2006, v. 1.1.4), so it could probably use an
>> upgrade.
>


> That sounds like something that a BIOS upgrade would fix, since the
> box doesn't "know" Linux during POST.
>
>> Actually, if you have any tips on upgrading the BIOS from within  
>> Linux,
>> give me a shout. Most of Dell's "solutions" for BIOS upgrade are
>> convoluted or Windows-centric. I was playing around with the  
>> libsmbios
>> utilities the other day. Perhaps there is something in there to  
>> help...
>


> I've got a similar problem with a DOS-based upgrade app.  I'm going
> to look to writing FreeDOS to a USB key.

>



I spent some research time on this today and found a Dell project  
called biosdisk:


http://linux.dell.com/projects.shtml

After installing biosdisk (from the Dell site) and experimenting, I  
was eventually able to update the BIOS by booting into a memdisk  
kernel with an initrd created by biosdisk.



Bogart


>> Thanks,
>>
>> Bogart
>>
>> On Dec 3, 2007, at 8:26 PM, Ron Johnson wrote:
>>
>> On 12/03/07 18:56, Bogart Salzberg wrote:

Call Pantek today for Open Source Technical Support at 1-877-546-8934 - 24/7/365X

>>>>> Ron,
>>>>>
>>>>> Interesting: when the USB drive is on, the box stalls during  
>>>>> POST. It is
>>>>> apparently some kind of deadlock, because when I power down the  
>>>>> drive
>>>>> POST completes immediately.
>>
>> What motherboard?
>
>


> - --
> Ron Johnson, Jr.
> Jefferson LA  USA
>


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Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 16:54:00 -0500


From: Bogart Salzberg <webmaster@inkfist.com>
To: debian users <debian-user@lists.debian.org>
Subject: Re: Preferred Backup Method?

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On Dec 4, 2007, at 4:09 PM, Michael Pobega wrote:


Do you need help?X
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

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>


> What is d-u's preferred method of backups? Now that I'm running  
> servers
> on my system (Apache, MySQL, SSH, etc.) I need to find a good  
> method of
> backing up, because no matter how much security someone has things may
> still go wrong.
>


> So list your preferred methods of creating/restoring backups and the
> pros and cons. Thanks!

I like Mondo for bare-metal restore (or cloning to identical  
hardware) and dirvish (an rsync wrapper) for archiving.


>


> - --
> If programmers deserve to be rewarded for creating innovative
> programs, by the same token they deserve to be punished if they
> restrict the use of these programs.
>  - Richard Stallman
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>
>


> -- 
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
> with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact  
> listmaster@lists.debian.org


>



Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2007 16:04:47 -0600


From: Ron Johnson <ron.l.johnson@cox.net>
To:  debian-user@lists.debian.org


Subject: Re: Preferred Backup Method?

Message-ID: <4755CEFF.4060008@cox.net>
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On 12/04/07 15:09, Michael Pobega wrote:

> What is d-u's preferred method of backups? Now that I'm running servers
> on my system (Apache, MySQL, SSH, etc.) I need to find a good method of
> backing up, because no matter how much security someone has things may
> still go wrong.
> 
> So list your preferred methods of creating/restoring backups and the
> pros and cons. Thanks!

*Much* more information needed.



How much stuff?  50MB?  5GB?  500GB?  5TB?


Do you need more help?X

How compressible is it?  Text/MySQL files or MP3s and JPGs?



How important is it?  Your own stuff, or a business' stuff?



How big of a window do you have to back it up?  30 minutes at 23:15,
and you're fired if it goes past midnight?  All night between 17:30
and 07:30?



How often will the lusers will "Michael, this stupid computer ate my
work.  Bring it back!!" (Meaning, of course, that they
stupidly/carelessly deleted/overwrote it.)  If it's a database, will
the developers want regular copies restored for testing?



Frequency?  Nightly, weekly, every-other-day?



Retention?  Keep backups for a month?  Quarter?  Year?  7 years?



Budget?  Always a killer...



For a small business that has crucial data, I'd buy a bunch of
250/320/500GB drives and put them in firewire external enclosures.
Get a calendar and mark it Week 01 thru Week 53.  With a Sharpie,
label the drives/enclosures:


Sunday A


Sunday B


Sunday C


...


Monday A


Monday B


 . . .


Depending on how many weeks of retention you want, that's how many
letter of the alphabet you go up.  Then, on the calendar next to the
week 01, write A


Week 02, write B


 . . .Week NN+1, write A.


Can we help you?X

That way I'd know which drive to use on which day.



As for backing it up, tar.  Works like a champ.



  •   --
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA  USA




%SYSTEM-F-FISH, my hovercraft is full of eels
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Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 12:48:27 -0800


From: "Todd A. Jacobs" <nospam@codegnome.org>
To: Debian User List <debian-user@lists.debian.org>
Subject: aptitude not seeing updates in repository

Message-ID: <20071204204827.GG27033@penguin.codegnome.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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One of my sources is:



    deb http://ftp.debian.org/debian/ unstable main contrib non-free



but despite repeated "sudo aptitude update" commands, I was still seeing
old files (as in more than three weeks old) when running
"apt-show-version -a <foo>" on a package.


Can't find what you're looking for?X

I added a kernel.org mirror, and things are back to normal, but I'd like
to know how I should handle this in the future. Is there a way to force
a full update, or to figure out why I'm not getting the most current
list of repository files?


-- 
"Oh, look: rocks!"
	-- Doctor Who, "Destiny of the Daleks"


Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2007 23:19:01 +0000
From: Adam Hardy <adam.ant@cyberspaceroad.com>
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
CC:  debian-user@lists.debian.org
Subject: Re: Preferred Backup Method?
Message-ID: <4755E065.6040807@cyberspaceroad.com>
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Ron Johnson on 04/12/07 22:22, wrote:

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> On 12/04/07 16:01, Douglas A. Tutty wrote:
> [snip]

>> less frequent burn to tiny CD-R to fit in the Bank's Safety Deposit Box.
>>
>> Before I go away anywhere (i.e. out of town), I copy the most important
>> of the backup to a 4 GB USB stick.
>>
>> This means that I have a separate directory called "essential_backup"
>> with a symlink in each user's home directory.  They are to place a
>> symlink of any critical data in that directory.  That directory is
>> tarred up (following the symlinks) very frequently indeed and propogated
>> to the other box immediatly.
>>
>> The regular stuff is tarred up (tgz) and split to 650 MB size e.g.
>> backup.tgz.aa to fit on CD-Rs.

> 
> That's good for personal use (I do something similar, but send it
> off to an external drive), but not adequate for a server.
> 

>> If security of the backups is required (other than physical security of
>> the media), then I use openssl to encrypt it with an unencrypted README
>> file, with the commands used to encrypt and decrypt (minus the actual
>> password), included on each backup media.

> 
> How do you do that?  (I'd have uses gpg.)
> 

>> So, to answer your question re software:  tar, gunzip, split, cat (to
>> rejoin splits), openssl, K3B, rsync, and mc.

faubackup

Advantage: will keep weekly, monthly, yearly backups, cropping the ones 
in-between so you end up with one per year, and then one per month last year, 
and then one per week last month etc.

Disadvantage: doesn't compress stuff. Well, I don't think it does. Didn't feel 
it was necessary after buying a Terabyte harddrive to backup to :) so I didn't 
look for the option.



Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 17:01:35 -0500
From: "Douglas A. Tutty" <dtutty@porchlight.ca>
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Subject: Re: Preferred Backup Method?
Message-ID: <20071204220135.GB8202@titan.hooton>
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On Tue, Dec 04, 2007 at 04:09:12PM -0500, Michael Pobega wrote:

> What is d-u's preferred method of backups? Now that I'm running servers
> on my system (Apache, MySQL, SSH, etc.) I need to find a good method of
> backing up, because no matter how much security someone has things may
> still go wrong.
> 
> So list your preferred methods of creating/restoring backups and the
> pros and cons. Thanks!


We need some info:

size of backup set (how much data)

Location (physical/virtual) of backup sets, e.g. to CD-Rs, tape, hard
drive in same box, dedicated backup server's hard drive, external hard
drive, USB stick.

In general, I do a few things:

frequent backup to a raid1-protected pair in the same box.

less frequent rsyc of that to the drive on another debian box

less frequent burn to CD-R

less frequent burn to tiny CD-R to fit in the Bank's Safety Deposit Box.

Before I go away anywhere (i.e. out of town), I copy the most important
of the backup to a 4 GB USB stick.

This means that I have a separate directory called "essential_backup"
with a symlink in each user's home directory.  They are to place a
symlink of any critical data in that directory.  That directory is
tarred up (following the symlinks) very frequently indeed and propogated
to the other box immediatly.

The regular stuff is tarred up (tgz) and split to 650 MB size e.g.
backup.tgz.aa to fit on CD-Rs.

If security of the backups is required (other than physical security of
the media), then I use openssl to encrypt it with an unencrypted README
file, with the commands used to encrypt and decrypt (minus the actual
password), included on each backup media.

So, to answer your question re software:  tar, gunzip, split, cat (to
rejoin splits), openssl, K3B, rsync, and mc.

Doug.



Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 16:52:19 -0500
From: "Douglas A. Tutty" <dtutty@porchlight.ca>
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Subject: Re: permissions in /sbin
Message-ID: <20071204215219.GA8202@titan.hooton>
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On Tue, Dec 04, 2007 at 09:24:24PM +0000, andy wrote:

> Jochen Schulz wrote:
> >andy:
> >  
> >>-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root   ...
> >>
> >>Is this really an okay arrangement for the contents of /sbin?
> >>    
> >
> >Sure it is. Only root may modify the files and everyone may read and
> >execute them. What did you expect?
> >
> >J.
> >  
> Fair enough. I just figured that since /sbin keeps those programs that 
> only root can run, having the x switch for each seemed promiscuous.


However and e.g.:

Any user should be able to run /sbin/ifconfig to check what interfaces
are configured if they are having a problem.

Doug.



Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 15:25:22 -0800
From: Andrew Sackville-West <andrew@farwestbilliards.com>
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Subject: Re: [OT] sandpaper [Was: Re: results: debian-user's favourite
	FLOSS]
Message-ID: <20071204232522.GF9741@localhost.localdomain>
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On Tue, Dec 04, 2007 at 05:20:51PM -0500, Christopher Judd wrote:

> On Tuesday 04 December 2007 13:06:36 Douglas A. Tutty wrote:

>=20

> >...

>=20

> >
> > How sad.
> > ...

>=20

> >
> > If you can only have one woodworking tool, make it a combination stone.
> > Then you can make every other tool eventually.  To make life easier, if
> > you can only have one tool, make it a vertical milling machine.  You can
> > then make a metal lathe and between the two, you can make anything
> > in the world, eventually.
> >

>=20

> Or start with a charcoal foundry and some hand tools, then make a lathe,
> followed by a shaper, ...

>=20

> 	http://www.lindsaybks.com/dgjp/djgbk/series/index.html


Oh that's very nice! Wow.

A

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End of debian-user-digest Digest V2007 Issue #2954
**************************************************

Received on Tue Dec  4 19:04:16 2007

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