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debian-user-digest Digest V2007 #2961

From: <debian-user-digest-request(at)lists.debian.org>
Date: Wed Dec 05 2007 - 15:21:14 EST


Content-Type: text/plain

debian-user-digest Digest Volume 2007 : Issue 2961

Today's Topics: 

  Re: rsync to clone disk - Can it wor  [ Andrew Sackville-West  ]
  Re: Preferred Backup Method?          [ David Brodbeck  ]
  Re: permissions in /sbin              [ David Brodbeck  ]
  Re: permissions in general (WAS: Re:  [ "Martin Marcher"  ]
  Test (and really annoyed)             [ Nigel Henry  ]
  Re: permissions in general (WAS: Re:  [ Joey Hess  ]
  Re: Test (and really annoyed)         [ Nigel Henry  ]
  Re: permissions in general            [ John Hasler  ]
  Re: permissions in general (WAS: Re:  [ David Brodbeck 

Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 09:13:46 -0800


From: Andrew Sackville-West <andrew@farwestbilliards.com>
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org


Subject: Re: rsync to clone disk - Can it work? grub-install error
Message-ID: <20071205171346.GM9741@localhost.localdomain>
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On Wed, Dec 05, 2007 at 11:31:17AM -0500, chloe K wrote:

> thank you Andrew
>=20
> this is my mistake. the tmp folder is missing
>=20
> grub-install is fine
Do you need help?X

:)



A



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Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 09:07:49 -0800


From: David Brodbeck <brodbd@u.washington.edu>
To: Debian User List <debian-user@lists.debian.org>
Subject: Re: UPS

Message-Id: <87CBF0B7-8754-42A6-ACC0-8C76EE7F8563@u.washington.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed

Do you need more help?X

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On Dec 5, 2007, at 4:07 AM, Tom Allison wrote:


Can we help you?X
>
>> APC has two model lines.  Their BackUPS models give you basic  
>> functionality and a contact-closure interface for power failure  
>> and low battery alerts. Configuration is by DIP switches.
>>
>> Their SmartUPS line adds scheduled self-tests, voltage buck/boost,  
>> and the ability to read line voltage, battery voltage, percent  
>> charge, and several other values through a serial interface.   
>> Configuration is through software.
>>
>
> Is the software configuration available in apscupsd or nut or ...?

NUT can do it.  I suspect apcupsd can do it, but I haven't used that.



Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 09:13:27 -0800


From: David Brodbeck <brodbd@u.washington.edu>
To: Debian User List <debian-user@lists.debian.org>
Subject: Re: UPS

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On Dec 5, 2007, at 4:11 AM, Tom Allison wrote:


> seems that APC owners are either dominant to the Debian users list  
> or just the kind of fanatic to answer an email about their UPS.
>
> I have a Belkin (lame) and a TrippLite (not so lame) that are both  
> "dumb" and I might keep for the VCR/Tivo/TV stuff.
> But it seems that APC is the clear favorite?

They pretty well dominate the mid-range UPS market in the U.S., from  
what I've seen.  I have little experience with Tripp-Lite except for  
one old low-end unit that doesn't seem to have replaceable  
batteries.  (I avoid UPSs where the batteries aren't easily  
replaceable -- it's the worst kind of planned obsolescence.)  Tripp- 
Lite's higher-end stuff seems to be well respected, though.



I did once buy a couple of CyberPower UPSs.  They worked with Linux  
but I can't recommend them.  They developed odd, flakey behavior  
after a couple years -- like abruptly switching off when there was  
still power available, or going on battery for no apparent reason and  
refusing to switch back to line power.  They also had no provisions  
for easy battery replacement.


Can't find what you're looking for?X

Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 09:17:15 -0800


From: David Brodbeck <brodbd@u.washington.edu>
To: Debian User List <debian-user@lists.debian.org>
Subject: Re: Preferred Backup Method?

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On Dec 5, 2007, at 6:52 AM, Douglas A. Tutty wrote:

> Please don't call this the "Usual Python error recovery problems".
> Python allows you to trap all the errors it could discover.  You just
> have to wrap everything in a try block.  So if you're getting error
> messages in a stack trace, then call it a bug.

Fair enough.  It's just that probably 90% of the Python software I've  
used has had this bug, so I came to assume it was inherent with that  
programming language.



Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 12:38:20 -0500


From: Joey Hess <joeyh@debian.org>


To: debian-user@lists.debian.org


Subject: Re: permissions in general (WAS: Re: permissions in /sbin)
Message-ID: <20071205173820.GB17441@kitenet.net>
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Don't know where to look next?X

Martin Marcher wrote:

> So the user needs to get a precompiled gcc somewhere.
> Then she would need to get all the header files necessary
> Then she needs to get the source.
> Then the quota is full... :)

Most systems come with perl. Perl can do anything any non-suid program
in /sbin can do. Most systems come with ar, tar, and wget. This can be
used to download any .deb and unpack it. The kind of "security" you're
suggesting has hstorically worked miserably, see for example Microsoft
Windows, which does not come with a C compiler or many useful programs.



--=20


see shy jo



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Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 09:24:24 -0800


From: David Brodbeck <brodbd@u.washington.edu>
To: Debian User List <debian-user@lists.debian.org>
Subject: Re: Preferred Backup Method?

Message-Id: 
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Confused? Frustrated?X

On Dec 5, 2007, at 8:12 AM, Michael Pobega wrote:

>
> I'm trying to write a shell script to use tar for backups, but I  
> want to
> know; Which directories are nessecary to backup with tar and which
> aren't? Obviously /bin, /usr, /home, /boot, /lib, /srv (Where I keep
> all of my chroots) and /etc are, but are any of the other directories
> mandatory to backup? Or are any of these directories fruitless to
> backup?

The answer is, "it depends."  How much custom configuration have you  
done?  How fast does the system need to be back in service?



For desktop machines that have basically stock installations, I often  
only back up /home and /etc, plus maybe /var/www if the machine has a  
web server.  I don't see any point in using up space backing up  
binaries that I can easily reinstall from the Debian CDs.  But on a  
system where I've built lots of local software or done lots of custom  
scripting, backing up the binaries makes more sense.



Excluding /tmp and /var/tmp makes sense.  So does excluding data  
caches -- /var/cache/apt, your squid cache directory if you're  
running squid, maybe even web browser caches if you're pinched for  
space.  On systems that run udev, backing up /dev is also fruitless,  
although it doesn't really take up much space.  And you should always  
exclude /proc.  It's not a "real" filesystem anyway.



Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 12:33:30 -0500


From: Joey Hess <joeyh@debian.org>


To: debian-user@lists.debian.org


Subject: Re: Debian installer support on apt-cacher-ng
Message-ID: <20071205173330.GA17441@kitenet.net>
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Call Pantek today for Open Source Technical Support at 1-877-546-8934 - 24/7/365X

Michael Pobega wrote:

> ftp.debian.org is no longer in use

Incorrect, ftp.debian.org is just as much in use as it has ever been, as
yet another mirror of the Debian archive.



--=20


see shy jo



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Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 09:31:55 -0800


From: David Brodbeck <brodbd@u.washington.edu>
To: Debian User List <debian-user@lists.debian.org>
Subject: Re: permissions in /sbin

Message-Id: <4FF94F24-E7F1-4A55-B63C-4A96744A7E63@u.washington.edu>
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Do you need help?X

On Dec 5, 2007, at 5:51 AM, John Hasler wrote:


> andy writes:
>> OK - but according to RUTE sbin = "Superuser binary executables.
>
> The "s" is for "system", not for "superuser".
>
>> These are programs for system administration only. Only the root will
>> have these executables in their path" ("Rute User's Tutorial &
>> Exposition", Paul Sheer, 2002; p137).
>
> Any user can add /sbin to her path.

And I often have done, usually after getting tired of seeing 'command  
not found' for the umpteenth time.  A lot of Unix-ish systems put  
fairly innocuous and commonly used stuff like traceroute and ntpq   
there.



One obvious problem with removing permissions on all this stuff is  
there are sometimes situations where an ordinary user legitimately  
needs to run, say, mount.



Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 09:33:40 -0800 (PST)
From: Javi <javibarroso@gmail.com>


To: debian-user@lists.debian.org


Subject: Re: Debian installer support on apt-cacher-ng

Message-ID: <7637d77d-ccd6-4da6-82ab-6d3da675f92a@w34g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>
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On Dec 5, 5:40 pm, Michael Pobega <pob...@gmail.com> wrote:

> ftp.debian.org is no longer in use, use a local mirror (Or use apt-spy
> to find the fastest mirror for you)

Sorry, I meant ftp.fi.debian.org


Do you need more help?X

Thanks for your quick answer



Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 18:57:52 +0100


From: "Martin Marcher" <martin@marcher.name>
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org


Subject: Re: permissions in general (WAS: Re: permissions in /sbin)

Message-ID: <5fa6c12e0712050957k3a47992g146ab0b2716a052c@mail.gmail.com>
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On 12/5/07, Joey Hess <joeyh@debian.org> wrote:

> Martin Marcher wrote:
> > So the user needs to get a precompiled gcc somewhere.
> > Then she would need to get all the header files necessary
> > Then she needs to get the source.
> > Then the quota is full... :)
>
> Most systems come with perl. Perl can do anything any non-suid program
> in /sbin can do. Most systems come with ar, tar, and wget. This can be
> used to download any .deb and unpack it. The kind of "security" you're
> suggesting has hstorically worked miserably, see for example Microsoft
> Windows, which does not come with a C compiler or many useful programs.
/usr/bin/perl
/usr/bin/wget
/bin/tar


exactly my point none of these tools would be accessible in the first
place without explicit permission by the sysadmin.



And btw. I'm not talking about tools, etc. I see a tendency in systems
being more secured with RBAC, MAC, auditing tools, $whatever.



But since *nix has a history of being secure because a user/process
can't by default destroy any data besides the data one/it owns. Why
not take that one further and require explicit permission to even run
a program that can potentially destroy data?



  •   Why not take that one further and require explicit permission to run
_any_ program?




Revoking "others" access by default does just that. I think my point
wasn't clear.


-- 
http://noneisyours.marcher.namehttp://feeds.feedburner.com/NoneIsYours

Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2007 18:11:01 +0000
From: andy <geek_show@dsl.pipex.com>
To: Debian User List <debian-user@lists.debian.org>
Subject: Re: Preferred Backup Method?
Message-ID: <4756E9B5.8030100@dsl.pipex.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

David Brodbeck wrote:

>
> On Dec 5, 2007, at 8:12 AM, Michael Pobega wrote:
>>
>> I'm trying to write a shell script to use tar for backups, but I want to
>> know; Which directories are nessecary to backup with tar and which
>> aren't? Obviously /bin, /usr, /home, /boot, /lib, /srv (Where I keep
>> all of my chroots) and /etc are, but are any of the other directories
>> mandatory to backup? Or are any of these directories fruitless to
>> backup?
>
> The answer is, "it depends."  How much custom configuration have you 
> done?  How fast does the system need to be back in service?
>
> For desktop machines that have basically stock installations, I often 
> only back up /home and /etc, plus maybe /var/www if the machine has a 
> web server.  I don't see any point in using up space backing up 
> binaries that I can easily reinstall from the Debian CDs.  But on a 
> system where I've built lots of local software or done lots of custom 
> scripting, backing up the binaries makes more sense.
>
> Excluding /tmp and /var/tmp makes sense.  So does excluding data 
> caches -- /var/cache/apt, your squid cache directory if you're running 
> squid, maybe even web browser caches if you're pinched for space.  On 
> systems that run udev, backing up /dev is also fruitless, although it 
> doesn't really take up much space.  And you should always exclude 
> /proc.  It's not a "real" filesystem anyway.
>
>

Just to wade in here, since the OP has asked a question that is also 
topical for me now:

I'd be wanting to do a back-up from my own machine to an external USB 
HDD as well as from a second machine connected to the LAN, both using 
Debian. I would want to save a back up of /home and /etc initially and 
then a weekly incremental back up of anything that has changed in the 
meantime. I don't need the encryption and don't really need the 
compression (the USB HDD is 500GB which can easily swallow both of the 
HDDs being backed up).

A number of suggestions as to the best program to use for backing up 
have been made, but many sound like they are overkill for my purposes. 
All I would need is something simple (like me :) ) and reliable. Any 
recommendations for this purpose?

Thanks

Andy


-- 

"If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don't have to worry about the answers." - Thomas Pynchon, "Gravity's Rainbow"



Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 19:02:32 +0100
From: Nigel Henry <cave.dnb@tiscali.fr>
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Subject: Test (and really annoyed)
Message-Id: <200712051902.32941.cave.dnb@tiscali.fr>
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Just a test ,as I've just had 3 replies to mailing list refused, as below.

 - These recipients of your message have been processed by the mail server:
debian-user@lists.debian.org; Failed; 5.1.1 (bad destination mailbox address)

    Remote MTA liszt.debian.org: SMTP diagnostic: 550 5.7.1 
<debian-user@lists.debian.org>: Recipient address rejected: Mail appeared to 
be SPAM or forged. Ask your Mail/DNS-Administrator to correct HELO and DNS MX 
settings or to get removed from DNSBLs; in postmaster.rfc-ignorant.org; in 
abuse.rfc-ignorant.org


Nigel.



Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 13:36:51 -0500
From: Joey Hess <joeyh@debian.org>
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Subject: Re: permissions in general (WAS: Re: permissions in /sbin)
Message-ID: <20071205183651.GA23530@kitenet.net>
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Martin Marcher wrote:

> /usr/bin/perl
> /usr/bin/wget
> /bin/tar


How about /bin/cat, which can be used to transfer copies of any of these
onto the system?


> * Why not take that one further and require explicit permission to run
> _any_ program?


Because then you have a web server with some CGIs. Which also has a
fairly dreadful security history in general.

--=20
see shy jo

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Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 19:22:12 +0100
From: Nigel Henry <cave.dnb@tiscali.fr>
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Subject: Re: Test (and really annoyed)
Message-Id: <200712051922.12483.cave.dnb@tiscali.fr>
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On Wednesday 05 December 2007 19:02, Nigel Henry wrote:

> Just a test ,as I've just had 3 replies to mailing list refused, as below.
>
>  - These recipients of your message have been processed by the mail server:
> debian-user@lists.debian.org; Failed; 5.1.1 (bad destination mailbox
> address)
>
>     Remote MTA liszt.debian.org: SMTP diagnostic: 550 5.7.1
> <debian-user@lists.debian.org>: Recipient address rejected: Mail appeared
> to be SPAM or forged. Ask your Mail/DNS-Administrator to correct HELO and
> DNS MX settings or to get removed from DNSBLs; in
> postmaster.rfc-ignorant.org; in abuse.rfc-ignorant.org
>
>
> Nigel.


Sorry for the noise, as it now appears that I can send to the list from my 
original email address again. Doh.

Nigel.



Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2007 12:20:59 -0600
From: John Hasler <jhasler@debian.org>
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Subject: Re: permissions in general
Message-ID: <87hcix0zqs.fsf@toncho.dhh.gt.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Martin Marcher wrote:

> Why not take that one further and require explicit permission to even run
> a program that can potentially destroy data?


There are few useful programs without the potential to destroy data.


> Why not take that one further and require explicit permission to run
> _any_ program?


Because most sysadmins don't want every user coming in every fifteen
minutes to get permission to run yet another program.
-- 
John Hasler



Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 11:07:22 -0800
From: David Brodbeck <brodbd@u.washington.edu>
To: Debian User List <debian-user@lists.debian.org>
Subject: Re: permissions in general (WAS: Re: permissions in /sbin)
Message-Id: <FFDE584B-93A5-48DC-ACE4-7BE6C18EACD4@u.washington.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
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On Dec 5, 2007, at 9:57 AM, Martin Marcher wrote:

> But since *nix has a history of being secure because a user/process
> can't by default destroy any data besides the data one/it owns. Why
> not take that one further and require explicit permission to even run
> a program that can potentially destroy data?
>
> * Why not take that one further and require explicit permission to run
> _any_ program?
>
> Revoking "others" access by default does just that. I think my point
> wasn't clear.


I suppose because if you remove permissions on anything that can  
potentially destroy data, you quickly end up with a system that isn't  
usable.  If you're getting paranoid enough to restrict wget and tar,  
you'd be better served by not letting the user have access to a shell  
at all.  I mean, you can still clobber a file you have write  
permission to by doing "echo 'Whatever' >file".  In most shells this  
requires no execute permissions on anything, since 'echo' is a built- 
in command.



Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2007 19:22:20 +0000
From: Bill Smith <bill@rakupottery.org.uk>
To: Debian User List <debian-user@lists.debian.org>
Subject: Re: Preferred Backup Method?
Message-ID: <4756FA6C.9000108@rakupottery.org.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

andy wrote:

> David Brodbeck wrote:
>>
>> On Dec 5, 2007, at 8:12 AM, Michael Pobega wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm trying to write a shell script to use tar for backups, but I 
>>> want to
>>> know; Which directories are nessecary to backup with tar and which
>>> aren't? Obviously /bin, /usr, /home, /boot, /lib, /srv (Where I keep
>>> all of my chroots) and /etc are, but are any of the other directories
>>> mandatory to backup? Or are any of these directories fruitless to
>>> backup?
>>
>> The answer is, "it depends."  How much custom configuration have you 
>> done?  How fast does the system need to be back in service?
>>
>> For desktop machines that have basically stock installations, I often 
>> only back up /home and /etc, plus maybe /var/www if the machine has a 
>> web server.  I don't see any point in using up space backing up 
>> binaries that I can easily reinstall from the Debian CDs.  But on a 
>> system where I've built lots of local software or done lots of custom 
>> scripting, backing up the binaries makes more sense.
>>
>> Excluding /tmp and /var/tmp makes sense.  So does excluding data 
>> caches -- /var/cache/apt, your squid cache directory if you're 
>> running squid, maybe even web browser caches if you're pinched for 
>> space.  On systems that run udev, backing up /dev is also fruitless, 
>> although it doesn't really take up much space.  And you should always 
>> exclude /proc.  It's not a "real" filesystem anyway.
>>
>>
> Just to wade in here, since the OP has asked a question that is also 
> topical for me now:
>
> I'd be wanting to do a back-up from my own machine to an external USB 
> HDD as well as from a second machine connected to the LAN, both using 
> Debian. I would want to save a back up of /home and /etc initially and 
> then a weekly incremental back up of anything that has changed in the 
> meantime. I don't need the encryption and don't really need the 
> compression (the USB HDD is 500GB which can easily swallow both of the 
> HDDs being backed up).
>
> A number of suggestions as to the best program to use for backing up 
> have been made, but many sound like they are overkill for my purposes. 
> All I would need is something simple (like me :) ) and reliable. Any 
> recommendations for this purpose?

I use rsback, which is just a very handy backend to rsync, it produces 
incremental backups
from the main server, 2 samba shares and all the homes with the imap 
mail to a second server
it is backed up onto another samba share on the second machine, so the 
people in the office
can they copy it off onto external drives to take home.
I just run it through a series of cron jobs every night, no problems at all.
HTH



>
> Thanks
>
> Andy
>
>



-- 
Bill



Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 16:45:31 -0300
From: "Iuri Sampaio" <iuri.sampaio@gmail.com>
To: <debian-user@lists.debian.org>
Subject: apt-get mirrors
Message-ID: <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAFv0S2ePK5tCkbJlLJ/suW7CgAAAEAAAACU/6jin6FlKgFth7mIp0isBAAAAAA==@gmail.com>
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	charset="windows-1250"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi,

What did happen with debian etch official mirrors?


I can't access the followed mirrors:

     deb http://http.us.debian.org/debian etch main contrib non-free
     deb http://non-us.debian.org/debian-non-US etch/non-US main contrib
non-free
     deb http://security.debian.org etch/updates main contrib non-free


     deb-src http://http.us.debian.org/debian etch main contrib non-free
     deb-src http://non-us.debian.org/debian-non-US etch/non-US main contrib
non-free


if there isn't anything wrong with mirrors, does anyone have a good one?
iuri


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End of debian-user-digest Digest V2007 Issue #2961
**************************************************

Received on Wed Dec  5 15:21:32 2007
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